Sydenham Road Community Street Audit

still_robbo · Post by **still_robbo** » 25 Nov 2006 14:27

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana (1905)

castiron73 · Post by **castiron73** » 25 Nov 2006 18:26

I like the history topics too. I'm just surprised no one seems interested in this thread. It makes a change to talk about positive things happening and I thought people might bounce ideas off each other.

DaveT's idea last year to widen the pavement on the station side was great. And after Living Street's email to us last week it got me thinking about just how radical the new plans could be, not just replacing the slabs with slightly larger ones etc. If more people are talking about ideas, and are ready for the meeting in December, the more Lewisham might listen.

People could just report the gossip/news they're hearing. There's talk of getting rid of sign clutter, crash barriers and even the island at Cobb's Corner, according to the bookshop.

It's great that Lewisham have got Living Streets involved in this and they might put right some of the things that have gone wrong.

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 25 Nov 2006 18:55

Castiron
I think often with a thread like this people express an opinion and then anyone that doesnt agree shouts them down,i think things like that put some people off contributing.

I hope to be able to get one of the survey leaflets and give my views[i'll have to pick on up as i live further away than 5 minutes],i'll have my say on that.

*as far as the painted rd markings idea goes,what happens about pedestrian crossings?[if there are no lights?]

still_robbo · Post by **still_robbo** » 25 Nov 2006 19:11

Fair comment castiron, I think I'd like something radical too. I'm not sure the Copenhagen model would work here (I'd be worried for the ginger Tom in the picture...), but some of the Kensington pictures look distinctly half-baked, as though there was insufficient courage to follow through with things fully.

Leaf, I think that's the nature of a internet forum, there's often a 'consensus' - I'd encourage people to contribute especially if it goes against this. But perhaps I'm just being contrary...

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 25 Nov 2006 19:39

"Leaf, I think that's the nature of a internet forum, there's often a 'consensus' - I'd encourage people to contribute especially if it goes against this. But perhaps I'm just being contrary..."

yes you have a point,

but then castiron shouldnt wonder why so few have contributed to the discussion........

still_robbo · Post by **still_robbo** » 25 Nov 2006 20:45

True leaf, true,

I get particularly annoyed at people who think that they have more of a right to comment and/or shout down because they're either a) more intelligent or more commonly b) think they're more intelligent.

Last time I checked we lived in a democracy where everyone has a say, not just those lucky enough to be clever or have a good education.

It's an open forum and I think everyone should feel happy to contribute.

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 25 Nov 2006 22:24

leaf

I think I agree with you. Can you help me out and tell me when it was that the road was narrowed and all the lights/crazy box junctions put in? I remember a time, only a couple of years ago, when I used to drive though Sydenham and it wasn't congested like it is now, and that can't be just down to traffic increase, can it?

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 25 Nov 2006 22:41

hello julwz

i think? it was all changed about10-15? yrs ago,it has been discussed on another thread about how it used to be,wider rds and fewer lights etc made it all a lot easier,better [imo] pedestrian crossing facilities too.

i know traffic increases may come into it a bit,but surely if you change [for the worse]the rd layout,that cant help can it?

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 25 Nov 2006 23:25

hi leaf

Thanks for the reply - I didn't realise the changes were that long ago. 10- 15 years ago the traffic would have been alot less, but nevertheless I think the road layout is a big factor due to the fact that the traffic can be queueing up kirkdale and yet totally clear as soon as you get past the roundabout and station. The road layout from a pedestrians point of view is also terrible and from what I can see adds to the slowing down of the traffic due to the poor location of the crossings.

This reminds me of the situation a few years ago in East Dulwich when the traffic going down lordship lane to the roundabout at Goose Green was a nightmare in the morning, (especially if you were on a bus going to ED station!). They tried to get rid of the roundabout and put in traffic lights instead , and there was a massive public outcry because the roundabout is a historical feature of the area , (unlike Cobbs corner). In the end they kept the roundabout and put in a bus lane on lordship lane instead. This was the obvious solution to help people communting to work and discourage car drivers at this time of day. Although a lot of the local shops thought they'd lose out, becaue of people not being able to park it was worked out so that the bus lane was only in operation during the busy periods so that this wasn't a problem in the end (no-one can say the shops on lordship lane aren't thriving). In my view this was a logical solution, since the traffic build-up was only ever a problem for a very limited time in the morning (suggesting that volume of traffic was the problem not the roundabout). The traffic build up at Cobbs corner is at most times of the day, which to me suggests a layout problem as well as volume of traffic. If it was purely volume of traffic it would chocka all the way down the high street.
I don't drive into town so I wonder if the problem is as bad car-wise in reverse in the mornings? ie going towards London?

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 25 Nov 2006 23:59

hi julwz

i have read about the lordship lane thing.

thing is there always WAS a roundabout at cobbs corner,just not a raised island one.

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 26 Nov 2006 10:15

hi leaf

leaf wrote:
thing is there always WAS a roundabout at cobbs corner,just not a raised island one.

Really? oh sorry - i thought it looked like there wasn't one in old pictures. The thing is whether people consider it an essential characteristic of the area, and would be upset if it was removed. I don't know what the situation is regarding that. Its certainly not as picturesque as the E. dulwich one which has grass and flowers planted on it.

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 26 Nov 2006 12:50

Sorry to bring "history" into it, but the roundabout as such is actually fairly recent. This picture (probably early '60s, although someone who knows about cars could date it more precisely) shows the layout as it was from the 1940s until probably the early 1970s. Before this there was a policeman on points duty controlling the traffic at Cobb's Corner.

This extract, from the 1969 OS map, shows the same arrangement.

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 26 Nov 2006 14:19

Aha, interesting. Thanks Steve.

castiron73 · Post by **castiron73** » 26 Nov 2006 15:14

What a great photo. It looks spookily like the 'new' ideas in Kensington High Street!

Please don't get me wrong. As someone who's spent the last few years painstakingly trying to return a gutted Thorpes house to its former glory, I'm as anxious as the next person to look to the past for good ideas - and learn from mistakes.

I don't think anyone's shouted anyone down here, although I apologise for my history dig. I was hoping to get a reaction. Leaf disagreed with my post but she's right to worry that some drivers might relish the chance to mow us down. Too many other changes would have to be made as well, what with Bell Green and people turning off the South Circular at the Horniman to treat us a short cut.

I do worry this plan might end up being half-baked, as still-robbo points out, if Lewisham get too much opposition. All I'm suggesting is that if Living Streets come up with a good plan we should be ready to think about it and support it.

And now I've seen Steve's photo I can write in my questionnaire that a return to the pre-70s junction at Cobb's Corner could be considered. I wouldn't have known that otherwise, which is why I think everyone should be debating it.

leaf · Post by **leaf** » 26 Nov 2006 21:03

Thanks for that picture steve,those zebras were playing in my mind last night,i had a vague memory of them while trying to picture that corner pre raised roundabout,

im sure that there was a roundabout before the island one,just painted on the road?

"Sorry to bring "history" into it, but the roundabout as such is actually fairly recent. This picture (probably early '60s, although someone who knows about cars could date it more precisely) shows the layout as it was from the 1940s until probably the early 1970s"

I was born in the early 70s,so would only know from late 70s onwards.

Muddy Waters · Post by **Muddy Waters** » 28 Nov 2006 08:37

Great picture, Steve. If we look closely (and we can because there are no cars!) we can see how uncluttered the junction is. There are no railings; the pedestrian crossings are at a point where there is no reason to take a short cut, pedestrians and cars have full visibility, and they are placed to make a pedestrian's life easy; few road markings - I bet the cars still found their way around this junction.

I look forward to taking part in this Sydenham Road audit - if we cannot revert to Cobbs Corner junction as depicted ( maybe we can, who knows?) at least we can try to get rid of unnecessary clutter and road markings and try to get pedestrian crossings where they are required.

Whatever the outcome I'll start a book here and now that the roundabout (once described memorably by a senior local politician as "reminiscent of being left over from the Berlin wall") will not survive in its present form.

Juwlz · Post by **Juwlz** » 28 Nov 2006 09:49

Those zebra crossing in that pic look much better placed than currently.

castiron73 · Post by **castiron73** » 28 Nov 2006 10:14

Latest I've heard is that they want the nursing home at Cobb's Corner to replace their wall with railings so that the area 'borrows' greenery from their front lawn.
They seem to be coming up with some really novel ideas.

Steve Grindlay · Post by **Steve Grindlay** » 28 Nov 2006 11:18

Here's a companion to the Cobb's Corner postcard, looking down Sydenham Road, with the ubiquitous road works (this time on the corner of Silverdale):

The detail in these pictures is fascinating, so I've put high resolution versions [here] Choose "all sizes" and "original"

Muddy Waters · Post by **Muddy Waters** » 28 Nov 2006 14:29

No takers so far about the replacement our lovely roundabout -

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Sydenham Road Community Street Audit