Street/Area names

[marymck]

the traders in and around the Old High Street have decided to rename the area "Kirkdale Village".

I think it's a cringe-worthy name, as well as being historically inaccurate and very misleading.

What do others think?

When and why was Kirkdale so named? I know the upper part used to be Sydenham Hill Road and I believe was changed to Kirkdale circa 1936, but what about the rest of the road?

If the cart goes before the horse and the area is renamed without proper public consultation (and I also wonder what Lewisham and Royal Mail have to say) and prior to regeneration, then does anyone have any more appropriate suggestions for a name?

I'm trying to re-post this, because I started it as a way of finding out about the history of the street names in this area and therefore of coming up with a more appropriate name for the upper part of Kirkdale than the misleading "Kirkdale Village".

Sadly, it got locked and diverted to a thread about a logo. I'm not interested in a logo for a name I don't believe has credibility. I think Lee's green dragon or grey hound would do the job of a logo for Sydenham very well. So, I'm trying to start this discussion about historical street/area names again.

And I'll kick it off (standing by to duck):

I for one would like to see the top part of Kirkdale (i.e. above the junction with Dartmouth Road) revert to its earlier name of "Sydenham Hill Road". I'd settle for "Upper Kirkdale". Plus, if we need to "brand" the shopping area here, then I'd prefer the more accurate "Sydenham Old Town".

This is a serious post and, before they start slinging mud my way again, I am not knocking the traders' efforts. But "Kirkdale Village" is misleading ... and if it is just the name of the shops then it smacks of "Bicester Village" type developments or shopping malls.

Incoming ... ducking now.

[ALIB]

I thought 'Kirkdale Village' was the name of the Traders Group.

I don't think the intention was to re-name the area, but just to give a 'brand name' to the group of shops.

[bigbadwolf]

The overall reputation and public image of any highstreet in any part of the country is the responsibility of both the businesses that trade on it and the local authority that governs the stretch of road. Re-branding/naming it so that it sounds familiarly like some of the more affluent and subsequently reputable localities is futile, not to mention defeatist.

It would be unfair of me not to recognise the positive impact that some of the recent arrivals have had on the mid to upper slopes of Sydenham road and Kirkdale. But for the most part it falls into the category of an average highstreet that you'll find all over the capital. Compared to places like Blackheath and Dulwich villages thats attraction lies in the sort of businesses that locals can afford to sustain, it's not the sort of attraction that would warrant someone thinking, 'I know, I'll go to Sydenham to check out the highstreet'.

By all means re-brand, but don't get all upset when no-one takes your re-branding seriously. Oh, and by the way. This whole concept has rather come from out of the blue, contrary to what some of the overly-enthusiastic contributions to the other threads discussing this subject would have us believe.

[leenewham]

Bbw, you hit the nail on the head.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[marymck]

Here's a link to a nice street map of Sydenham c.1940 that I hadn't seen before, for those interested in these things. This was after the naming of Kirkdale.

http://www.maps-of-london.com/map-sydenham

[marymck]

This is also a useful website for those interested in London's changing street names:

http://www.maps.thehunthouse.com/Street ... hanges.htm

This fascinating site includes a list compiled by Fred Rayment. Fred was a London fireman and he compiled his list during the blitz. (Of course the "old" names wouldn't be the "original" names, which probably went through various incarnations before starting out along the lines of "ugh muddy bit here".)

This from the site ...

Frederick's work came about as a direct result of the fact that, during the period preceding the Second World War, the London County Council was formed, and took over many of the responsibilities that until then had been the prerogative of the numerous Borough Councils.

The new council, which became generally known as the L.C.C., inherited a situation in which many street names in its area were duplicated, triplicated or even worse. This had arisen because, although each of the Boroughs had normally used a street name only once within its own area, when these Boroughs were amalgamated to form the L.C.C., a multiplicity of many of the most popular street names became apparent.

As a result of the obvious confusion caused to the Postal Authorities and to others, the L.C.C. embarked on a very ambitious plan to eliminate all street name duplication by means of a massive street re-naming scheme lasting several decades.

Unfortunately, at the outbreak of the Second World War, the scheme was only just nearing completion, with many street name signs still bearing both their old and new names. For the emergency services, often having to navigate in the blackout through bomb damaged streets, to hurriedly reach addresses quoted by a panicking or excited member of the public, the re-naming of such streets presented a serious problem because, in the event of a name query, they could not ask further questions of their control since they were not equipped with radio at that time.

Fireman Rayment, who was the driver of a turntable escape appliance during this period, decided to try and compile a list of the street name changes which had been instituted by the L.C.C., simply in order to avoid time being wasted in searching for re-named streets. Since during the chaos of the blitz he had been called upon to serve in various different fire station areas, he decided to include the whole of the L.C.C. area when making his list.

With the help of many fire brigade colleagues too numerous to mention, a friend who worked in the G.P.O., and another friend who was employed in the planning department of the L.C.C., Fred Rayment managed to produce his list, which he then used throughout the remainder of the war.

Following his death in 1984, his house was sold and many of his possessions were placed into storage by his son Roy. It was not until late in the year 1998 that Roy began to read through his late father's papers and re-discovered the original manuscript list of the street name changes that his father had compiled nearly sixty years beforehand.

[marymck]

From the above site, we can see that changes made between 1929 and 1945 include:
(New name) (Old name)
Amberley Grove S.E.26 Amberley Road
Bell Green Lane S.E.26 Kent House Lane
Champion Road S.E.26 Champion Park
Cheseman Street S.E.26 Russell Street
Dartmouth Road (part) # S.E.23 High Street, Sydenham (N.E. part)
Dartmouth Road (part) # S.E.26 High Street, Sydenham (N.E. part)
Hall Drive S.E.26 Drive, The
Hazel Grove S.E.26 Acacia Road
Kinver Road (part) S.E.26 Kinver Road North
Kinver Road (part) S.E.26 Kinver Road South
Kirkdale # S.E.26 High Street, Sydenham (S.W. part)
Kirkdale # S.E.26 Sydenham Hill Road
Mill Gardens S.E.26 Mill Lane
Mount Gardens S.E.26 Mount, The
Springfield Rise S.E.26 Springfield Road
Wells Park Road S.E.26 Wells Road
Willow Way S.E.26 Willow Walk

The compiler of this site is Bruce Hunt and he sells e-books and CDs from the site.

[marymck]

I see what you mean, Robin & Eagle, about the "Kirk" being St Bartholomew's. I was just looking for a church actually on Kirkdale itself. But of course it couldn't have been St Matthew's, because that was "just off" Sydenham Hill Road (which didn't get re-named Kirkdale until 1936).

Having just checked an 1865 map, I see that (Lower) Kirkdale carried the Kirkdale name in 1865. At that point St Bartholomew's seems to have been the closest church to lower Kirkdale. I guess the LCC just used an existing street name, vastly extending its length, without much thought to character. It would be interesting to see how far back that original section of Kirkdale was so named.

I think I'll bump up my thread in the Town Museum re. the originals of street names and pose these questions there, in case I get bumped out of this thread for going off topic (again - lol).

I've always thought "The Kirk" was Presbyterian. Certainly when I lived in Scotland and people talked about "The Kirk" they were talking about the Church of Scotland. Our Church (being Catholic) was known as "The Church". (Actually, the Proddies usually called it something unprintable and not fit for the ears of children.)

Was there a Presbyterian church in the area do you know? Where was the dissenters' chapel & could that have been it?

I've copied the above from a thread from Town Chat that I originally started by asking what to call someone from Sydenham. I thought I might be in danger of going off topic.

So ... does anyone know when the section of Kirkdale between (what became known as) Cobb's Corner and Wells Park Road got it's name? Was it named for St Bartholomew's? Or for the dissenters' chapel? & where was the dissenters' chapel?

Thanks!

[marymck]

Here's a funny one I just saw on Bruce Hunt's website:

Some time between 1857 & 1929, Rembrandt Road (part) became Murillo Road. I wonder what poor Rembrandt had done to offend? &if we'll ever seen a Tracey Road or Emin Road?

[sydeman]

The road Halifax Street used to be called Hannover STreet and this was changed at the first world war, as it sounded too Germanic. I have always wanted to know why Halifax Street was chosen?

[marymck]

Sydeman: I looked at the 1819 Enclosures map, but can see no clue there to the origins of Hannover Street. I can see lots of other names that crop up in street names though: Earl of Dartmouth, Lord Eliot, Mrs Mayow, Cator, Russell, Lawrie. There's also Cobb ... I wonder if that was anything to do with the people who owned the store? Interestingly (for me anyway) I also spotted one of the names from my family tree: Blackmore. So that's given me something else to follow up on.

One of the few roads that actually has a name on the 1819 map is Jew's Walk.

in 1819, Kirkdale is "No. 2 Public Road". By 1843 the top part of Kirkdale at least (my photocopy stops at Jew's Walk) was called Sydenham Common; & by 1863 it was Sydenham Hill Road, which name it stuck with till 1936.

[marymck]

Whoops, Sydeman. I misread your post. Sorry I don't know why it was called Halifax Street either.

[LewisSale]

Hanover Street was, at first, the turning out of Wells (Park) Road and ran only to the owner's land boundary and presumably was named after the ruling dynasty at the time of its creation (Queen Victoria-House of Hanover). This must have been sometime after 1843 as it is not shown on the Tithe map of that year but houses do appear on the Drainage Map of 1849. The northern part, from the side of the Woodman P.H., was called Crystal Crescent (after the Palace?) and was developed separately and later, I think after 1851. On 30 July 1886 the Metroplitan Board of Works abolished the name of Crystal Crescent and its subsidiary terraces (Melrose Cottages and St Leonard's Terrace) and the whole street became Hanover Street. This name was changed to Halifax Street by the London County Council on 20 November 1906, sometime before the first World War. The renaming was, I beleive an attempt to rationalise the names of streets in the LCC area and as "Hanover" would have been a popular name it went.