Croydon Canal route: Honor Oak Park to Brockley
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2069/223 ... 5e7b_b.jpg
The locks can't be that far underground. I doubt the playing fields were even levelled, but the canal/railway embankment seems to have been broken away when the fireworks huts were built. I'm starting to picture it all now thanks to the 1914 map provided by Steve. Dead Lane footbridge is definitely shown with the church at the bottom of Coutrai Road.
The locks can't be that far underground. I doubt the playing fields were even levelled, but the canal/railway embankment seems to have been broken away when the fireworks huts were built. I'm starting to picture it all now thanks to the 1914 map provided by Steve. Dead Lane footbridge is definitely shown with the church at the bottom of Coutrai Road.
1868
Most of the original canal banks are still in existence as railway banks, which would have led me to believe the playing fields were levelled off with spoil--BUT--the banks are seen in the post-railway photo. If the playing fields were levelled off then it must have taken place after the fireworks huts were demolished and not with earlier railway spoil.
BTW, perhaps the canal never had a western bank at Honor Oak Park south.
Most of the original canal banks are still in existence as railway banks, which would have led me to believe the playing fields were levelled off with spoil--BUT--the banks are seen in the post-railway photo. If the playing fields were levelled off then it must have taken place after the fireworks huts were demolished and not with earlier railway spoil.
BTW, perhaps the canal never had a western bank at Honor Oak Park south.
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
I've never disputed the line from lock 20 downwards through the cutting.
I'm only concerned with that bank and the canal from top lack to lock 20 at brockley way..and your map of that area more or less agrees with my own...ie the embankment follows the canal down to lock 23 then goes east into the cutting...
I just dont agree with it crossing to the other side of the cutting...
also, the landscape features marked on the OS map and others show 2 areas, exactly lock size. at the right places, but slightly west of the line...locks 23 and 22...
also, received wisdom has always held that brockley mews was the site of a lock...and i still think it possible that the canal clipped the corner here, at roughly lock 21, before reaching the line of the tracks.
but that map of yours DOES bear out my theory about the bank along the side of the firework factory is close enough to be at least next to the canal....
and my measurements, place those paths precisely at the locks... up until lock 23...
I dont know why you argue so forcefully against this fairly obvious allignment...especially when the maps are generally in agreement....
I'm pretty sure the emankment represents the genuine towpath as far as lock 23...after that its just spoil or something... but the canal definitely ran along the line of that embankment.
also, those estate maps are showing the canal cutting, not just banks, which is most interesting...ie the cutting at least partly existed before the railway...or is it the valley that preceded it...
I had no idea about that embankment uuntil t'other day...and it really is so obviously the key to the whole thing...
line up mapped parts of the actual cuttings as well as the roads....they are still apparent in the aerials
anyway...the south boundary wall of the firework factory is STILL there today...as are marks in the landscape showing the shorter north wall...again, agreeing with your overlay...so the course of the embankment can be found in situe...
so at least we can find locks 25, 24 and maybe 23......I stand by my decisions on those!
the playing field west of the embankment has been raised above the height of the pavilion roof, or thereabouts, (remeber part of it is the buirial plot) and the area by the bottom lock must have been at the level of the bottom lock...you dont make a cutting for locks...they simply allow you you to pass down a shallow incline, so each pound is on a flat plane 6 feet lower than the previous one.
what we have is 2 periods of landfill;
one to fill the canal , and make good soo to speak...leaving the embankment/ towpath as a right of way and enclosing the factory area..
this is quite clear..
sometime after 1914....and i reckon even later, after the factory closed in 1947, the embankment would have been levelled and the present situation began to take shape...with the golf course becoming allotments and cemetary...
great work by the way...and i'm happy to accept it beyond lock 23..
but my job here was to find the locks...and i reckon that embankment leads us to 3 of them!
I'm only concerned with that bank and the canal from top lack to lock 20 at brockley way..and your map of that area more or less agrees with my own...ie the embankment follows the canal down to lock 23 then goes east into the cutting...
I just dont agree with it crossing to the other side of the cutting...
also, the landscape features marked on the OS map and others show 2 areas, exactly lock size. at the right places, but slightly west of the line...locks 23 and 22...
also, received wisdom has always held that brockley mews was the site of a lock...and i still think it possible that the canal clipped the corner here, at roughly lock 21, before reaching the line of the tracks.
but that map of yours DOES bear out my theory about the bank along the side of the firework factory is close enough to be at least next to the canal....
and my measurements, place those paths precisely at the locks... up until lock 23...
I dont know why you argue so forcefully against this fairly obvious allignment...especially when the maps are generally in agreement....
I'm pretty sure the emankment represents the genuine towpath as far as lock 23...after that its just spoil or something... but the canal definitely ran along the line of that embankment.
also, those estate maps are showing the canal cutting, not just banks, which is most interesting...ie the cutting at least partly existed before the railway...or is it the valley that preceded it...
I had no idea about that embankment uuntil t'other day...and it really is so obviously the key to the whole thing...
line up mapped parts of the actual cuttings as well as the roads....they are still apparent in the aerials
anyway...the south boundary wall of the firework factory is STILL there today...as are marks in the landscape showing the shorter north wall...again, agreeing with your overlay...so the course of the embankment can be found in situe...
so at least we can find locks 25, 24 and maybe 23......I stand by my decisions on those!
the playing field west of the embankment has been raised above the height of the pavilion roof, or thereabouts, (remeber part of it is the buirial plot) and the area by the bottom lock must have been at the level of the bottom lock...you dont make a cutting for locks...they simply allow you you to pass down a shallow incline, so each pound is on a flat plane 6 feet lower than the previous one.
what we have is 2 periods of landfill;
one to fill the canal , and make good soo to speak...leaving the embankment/ towpath as a right of way and enclosing the factory area..
this is quite clear..
sometime after 1914....and i reckon even later, after the factory closed in 1947, the embankment would have been levelled and the present situation began to take shape...with the golf course becoming allotments and cemetary...
great work by the way...and i'm happy to accept it beyond lock 23..
but my job here was to find the locks...and i reckon that embankment leads us to 3 of them!
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
canal banks are only a few feet high...but canal cuttings can be very deep indeed....
the towpath would have been on an embankment for most of the length of the canal, albeit only slightly raised in some cases, seeing as it is on the down side of the hills, and the canal must be flat...this would be more pronounced on the hill areas...
the towpath would have been on an embankment for most of the length of the canal, albeit only slightly raised in some cases, seeing as it is on the down side of the hills, and the canal must be flat...this would be more pronounced on the hill areas...
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
by the way..the green lines on that embankment overlay look like they need to move slightly east...or at least...they certainly can move east and still fit...
the railway at brenchly is too far west...and the allignment with buckthorne rd doesnt seem to fit, either...
it just shows how difficult this all is...
the railway at brenchly is too far west...and the allignment with buckthorne rd doesnt seem to fit, either...
it just shows how difficult this all is...
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
Ok mate, I must have misunderstood you then; I thought you said it followed west of the bank all the way.I'm only concerned with that bank and the canal from top lack to lock 20 at brockley way..and your map of that area more or less agrees with my own...ie the embankment follows the canal down to lock 23 then goes east into the cutting...
I just dont agree with it crossing to the other side of the cutting...
I thought you were saying the canal was on the western side of the bank, but it turns out to be on the east for the most part.but that map of yours DOES bear out my theory about the bank along the side of the firework factory is close enough to be at least next to the canal....
and my measurements, place those paths precisely at the locks... up until lock 23...
The only reason I argued is because, again, I thought you imagined the canal going west of the embankment. "Being on the line of the embankment" is too vague. Specifically, the canal ran east of the embankment, though around the fireworks huts it had began westwards on top of the bank. The towpath was on the east side of the canal--presumably along the inner bank. You can see this on the official maps.I dont know why you argue so forcefully against this fairly obvious allignment...especially when the maps are generally in agreement....
I'm pretty sure the emankment represents the genuine towpath as far as lock 23...after that its just spoil or something... but the canal definitely ran along the line of that embankment.
Exactly. You shouldn't underestimate those kind of maps; they can come in very useful and are far more accurate than other maps of the era (before Tithe). I've got estate maps of Brockley and New Cross from the 1600s, which could be stitched together to reveal the full extent of woodland during that time. They're even good enough to be superimposed onto an aerial.also, those estate maps are showing the canal cutting, not just banks, which is most interesting...ie the cutting at least partly existed before the railway...or is it the valley that preceded it...
That 1868 overlay should be spot on, mate. I used Steve's map.by the way..the green lines on that embankment overlay look like they need to move slightly east...or at least...they certainly can move east and still fit...
the railway at brenchly is too far west...and the allignment with buckthorne rd doesnt seem to fit, either...
it just shows how difficult this all is...
Yeah, it seems like there was a slight angle there, though this must have all changed when the bridge was demolished and church built at the bottom. The road would have been straightened then no doubt.(just an aside.....interesting that dead lane, although it is at the top of Courtrai rd, actaually led up from Kilgour or Holmesley rd....)
Anyway, all this argueing and disagreement or misunderstanding--whatever it was--means we've made good progress. It's really coming together now... No hard feelings, huh?
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
none at all mate....just wanted to be clear....No hard feelings, huh? Wink
we just dont know, at this stage what connection the embankment had....but being so close to the line of the canal, and incorporating some of the lock earthworks, it just has to have a connection...even if its just where they shovelled all the left overstuff....
I reckon...find the embankment...then we can find the locks, thats all...
I still think there is some hope that that embankment, at least by locks 25
and 24, represented part of the official towpath, before it diverged at or before lock 23....
(wishful thinking, maybe?)
here are some images of locks...
as you can see, you use both sides of the lock, and people will always make a path when they want to go somewhere, so its not inconceivable that the west bank was used as a path, and that it was enhanced at the end of the canals life...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2177/224 ... 3d61_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2171/224 ... 174f_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2381/224 ... 71e9_o.jpg
...and the lock keepers cottage was on the west bank.....and with 2 other bridges on this section, its very likely that people would cross at the nearest bridge and then head north or south as they needed.
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
check this out, for a virtual tour of the peak forest canal, from the locks at marple to the terminus at Whaley Bridge..
Its very similar to the Croydon, in that it passes through woodland, its narrow beam, and clings to the side of a fairly steep hill ...
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... l%26sa%3DN
Its very similar to the Croydon, in that it passes through woodland, its narrow beam, and clings to the side of a fairly steep hill ...
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgur ... l%26sa%3DN
This only applies at the fireworks huts because that's when the canal, heading towards croydon, started to go west across it's inner bank to become completely in line with it's outer bank. If you take any part of the embankment from Dead Lane to Brockley Station then this rule doesn't apply; find any embankment here, and you won't be anywhere near the canal/locks.reckon...find the embankment...then we can find the locks, thats all...
Anything is possible regarding additional pathways, but the official towpath on the map is shown to have been to the east, and I don't feel there's any need to speculate about it. We've got no evidence of additional pathways, and it doesn't really help us with anything.I still think there is some hope that that embankment, at least by locks 25
and 24, represented part of the official towpath, before it diverged at or before lock 23....
(wishful thinking, maybe?)
That's because Honor Oak Park's predecessor was in front of the lock keeper's cottage. Anyone heading north or south along the western bank would have been doing so across fields....and the lock keepers cottage was on the west bank.....and with 2 other bridges on this section, its very likely that people would cross at the nearest bridge and then head north or south as they needed.
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
firstly..I think the embankment IS evidence...very BIG evidence..
I personally think it needs serious consideration...I agree its no good after dead lane...but thats not the point...
it lines up perfectly at those locks, and and could represent either bank once the factory starts....
we have evidence of a major pathway heading west of the canal up to the gates of the crematorium..ie turn right off dead lane...you dsaid yourself that the towpath was used as a right of way long after the canal was infilled....
tell you what..I'll investigate from this angle...and you go your way....
but believe me...I know where those locks are!
I personally think it needs serious consideration...I agree its no good after dead lane...but thats not the point...
it lines up perfectly at those locks, and and could represent either bank once the factory starts....
we have evidence of a major pathway heading west of the canal up to the gates of the crematorium..ie turn right off dead lane...you dsaid yourself that the towpath was used as a right of way long after the canal was infilled....
tell you what..I'll investigate from this angle...and you go your way....
but believe me...I know where those locks are!
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
...but they will be way underground....
consider the level nature of the gates at honor oak park....almost level with the house opposit...as opposed to nearly 12 feet lower as it was at the time...
the banks of the phony wharf are infilled as well....soeven here we are way above the canal...ther wouldnt be any earthworks that high
consider the level nature of the gates at honor oak park....almost level with the house opposit...as opposed to nearly 12 feet lower as it was at the time...
the banks of the phony wharf are infilled as well....soeven here we are way above the canal...ther wouldnt be any earthworks that high
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
see haow the locks work....
this is steeper , obviously but imagine standing at dead lane and looking UP roughly 24feet in 500 yards....to gates of top lock
from lock 25 to the top pound beyond the locks would be anrise of 12 feet or so in 120 yards...a fairly steep incline
http://www.luphen.org.uk/images/2004/20 ... 151722.jpg
this is steeper , obviously but imagine standing at dead lane and looking UP roughly 24feet in 500 yards....to gates of top lock
from lock 25 to the top pound beyond the locks would be anrise of 12 feet or so in 120 yards...a fairly steep incline
http://www.luphen.org.uk/images/2004/20 ... 151722.jpg
I don't see how the embankment can be used as evidence for pathways, since everything becomes pear-shaped around the fireworks huts. The vertical axis of the bank and the vertical axis of the canal drift apart in the direction of Dead Lane. If there were any pathways after Dead Lane just suppose, they would have to be close to the canal on the inner bank or away from the outer bank. I just can't see how banks can indicate pathway and what the significance is.firstly..I think the embankment IS evidence...very BIG evidence..
I personally think it needs serious consideration...I agree its no good after dead lane...but thats not the point...
That's because the canal drifts towards it's western outer bank, via it's inner bank, and so the locks become lined up with the outer bank--only at the point of the fireworks huts.it lines up perfectly at those locks, and and could represent either bank once the factory starts....
There is evidence for this at Brockley Cross on the official maps.we have evidence of a major pathway heading west of the canal up to the gates of the crematorium..ie turn right off dead lane...you dsaid yourself that the towpath was used as a right of way long after the canal was infilled....
I know where they are, too, by looking at the line of the canal itself on your Google Maps overlay. You also spotted the remnants in that photo because the canal had crossed onto it's own bank at the fireworks huts. You cannot use a bank to find a lock anywhere else.tell you what..I'll investigate from this angle...and you go your way....
but believe me...I know where those locks are!
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
look...
I am allowed to have my opinions...and I'm afraid I think a massive earthwork like that needs explanation...
I can pin point the locks as paths on the embankment...and the empty lock pounds further down dont fit with your overlay...
I think we need to agree to differ, here...or get bogged down....
I have found much in the way of evidence in the aerials to show a different path that fits more closely with the one we started with...it fits the physical properties of the landscape and the surrounding markers....
consequently...
I would trust the plan maps and the aerials over the estate maps...and the evidence on the ground is fairly plain..
if, as you say there is no connection between canal and embankment...well, explain the embankment!!!
it certainly looks, at least like a hegrow along the west bank of the canal on all the maps that mark it...and the estate maps would ignore canal earthworks because they wouldnt have been part of the estate structure, belonging to the canal company.
...and the only evidence you have for this new route are these estate maps.....all the other maps disagree....
sure...I need to get down and have a fresh look with my own eyes...but I really think you are not taking the contemporary historic landscape as it was......none of this area was flat...it was the slopes down from one tree hill...funnelling down twards the vale at brockley way.....
how steep do you reckon the cutting for the canal was?
could it just have been brockley vale...and then a cutting later?
the distance aprt of the locks tells us itwasnt very steep...but we are looking at a diference of 42 feet just between the top pound and lock 20 at brockley way....plus the incline down towards brockley rise....
shame i cant model the landscape in 3d for you...then you'd get it....
but...to be honest...I'm feeling a bit crap about the whole thing really!
I do think I have a point.
thats all.
check out all the evidence, and .'.....once all else is eliminated, the answer, however weird is at hand'...(paraphrase)
I am allowed to have my opinions...and I'm afraid I think a massive earthwork like that needs explanation...
I can pin point the locks as paths on the embankment...and the empty lock pounds further down dont fit with your overlay...
I think we need to agree to differ, here...or get bogged down....
I have found much in the way of evidence in the aerials to show a different path that fits more closely with the one we started with...it fits the physical properties of the landscape and the surrounding markers....
consequently...
I would trust the plan maps and the aerials over the estate maps...and the evidence on the ground is fairly plain..
if, as you say there is no connection between canal and embankment...well, explain the embankment!!!
it certainly looks, at least like a hegrow along the west bank of the canal on all the maps that mark it...and the estate maps would ignore canal earthworks because they wouldnt have been part of the estate structure, belonging to the canal company.
...and the only evidence you have for this new route are these estate maps.....all the other maps disagree....
sure...I need to get down and have a fresh look with my own eyes...but I really think you are not taking the contemporary historic landscape as it was......none of this area was flat...it was the slopes down from one tree hill...funnelling down twards the vale at brockley way.....
how steep do you reckon the cutting for the canal was?
could it just have been brockley vale...and then a cutting later?
the distance aprt of the locks tells us itwasnt very steep...but we are looking at a diference of 42 feet just between the top pound and lock 20 at brockley way....plus the incline down towards brockley rise....
shame i cant model the landscape in 3d for you...then you'd get it....
but...to be honest...I'm feeling a bit crap about the whole thing really!
I do think I have a point.
thats all.
check out all the evidence, and .'.....once all else is eliminated, the answer, however weird is at hand'...(paraphrase)
There's 3 possible routes for an imaginary pathway on the western side of the canal in relation to the western bank.
Route 1: the pathway followed west of the bank.
Route 2: the pathway followed on top of the bank.
Route 3: the pathway followed along the side of the canal.
They all drift apart from each other like the canal drifts from it's bank. How can we possibly know which one is right based on the alignment of the bank? There is no pattern. The most plausible route would be right beside the canal, just like the towpath on the other side, but this is based on the canal alignment--not the bank alignment. If you follow the alignment of the bank then you end up going away from the canal.
Route 1: the pathway followed west of the bank.
Route 2: the pathway followed on top of the bank.
Route 3: the pathway followed along the side of the canal.
They all drift apart from each other like the canal drifts from it's bank. How can we possibly know which one is right based on the alignment of the bank? There is no pattern. The most plausible route would be right beside the canal, just like the towpath on the other side, but this is based on the canal alignment--not the bank alignment. If you follow the alignment of the bank then you end up going away from the canal.
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will greenwood
- Posts: 352
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 23:45
- Location: moorlinch
OK...
heres the evidence for the ' Imaginary' footpath...along the hedgrow....where the bank is...
I'm afraid its pretty plain to see on each of these maps...at different stages...also...the workings left by the canal digging can be seen....implying a continuation towards brockley mews for the canal...I imagine this is the kind of evidence previous researchers have based their conclusions on....
I dont know, myself..and can see why the maps lead you to your conclusions...but I am studying a REAL , and not 'imaginary' landscape feature, that I cant fully explain and would like to....
My hypothesis stands...and makes sense.....
there is good reason, and plenty of precedent,for re directing an already present feature, towards an existing pathway onto dead lane and on to Nunhead, after the canal had been drained....and obviously easier at the time than levelling all the way accross...
if there was no bank there when the canal was drained...why on earth RAISE A BANK of such size???
and just imagine what else would merit an earthwork of such magnitude...certainly a linear feature like this makes no sense as 'levelling the spoil..a towpath??
canal embankment...(east side??)
who knows....
Honestly...step back and have a look!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/224 ... 21c3_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/224 ... 1c83_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2341/224 ... cb6b_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/224 ... 527c_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2320/224 ... 9c5a_o.jpg
...I'm not here for confrontation!
heres the evidence for the ' Imaginary' footpath...along the hedgrow....where the bank is...
I'm afraid its pretty plain to see on each of these maps...at different stages...also...the workings left by the canal digging can be seen....implying a continuation towards brockley mews for the canal...I imagine this is the kind of evidence previous researchers have based their conclusions on....
I dont know, myself..and can see why the maps lead you to your conclusions...but I am studying a REAL , and not 'imaginary' landscape feature, that I cant fully explain and would like to....
My hypothesis stands...and makes sense.....
there is good reason, and plenty of precedent,for re directing an already present feature, towards an existing pathway onto dead lane and on to Nunhead, after the canal had been drained....and obviously easier at the time than levelling all the way accross...
if there was no bank there when the canal was drained...why on earth RAISE A BANK of such size???
and just imagine what else would merit an earthwork of such magnitude...certainly a linear feature like this makes no sense as 'levelling the spoil..a towpath??
canal embankment...(east side??)
who knows....
Honestly...step back and have a look!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2363/224 ... 21c3_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2007/224 ... 1c83_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2341/224 ... cb6b_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2280/224 ... 527c_o.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2320/224 ... 9c5a_o.jpg
...I'm not here for confrontation!