Croydon Canal route: Honor Oak Park to Brockley

The History of Sydenham from Cippenham to present day. Links to photos especially welcome!
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Falkor
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Croydon Canal route: Honor Oak Park to Brockley

Post by Falkor »

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Looking southwest, the canal passed from the Forest Wood section of Devonshire Road (remnants of the wood can be seen in Devonshire Road Nature Reserve) directly underneath the house on the right, and cut across what is now Honor Oak Park, diagonally to the left of where the cameraman (me) was standing.

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Looking west, the canal passed from the driveway (left) diagonally towards the bottom corner of the right-hand side junction.

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Looking east, the canal passed from right to left over this green, before continueing across what has become a yard used by Tree Surgeons.

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Looking east and west, respectively, on the other side of the Tree Surgeon's yard. The canal passed from south to north across both these views, quite close to where the cameraman was standing I'd imagine.

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Looking northeast in the same direction of where the canal ran towards that bank seen in the distance. One lock would have stood on the corner of the church yard green, and the next one only slightly further on, around the point where the bank ascends.

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Still looking northwest, at the foot of the bank/mound where that lock would have stood. The canal passed right underneath the cameraman's feet, but slightly more in the easterly direction.

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Looking northeast on top of the mound, the canal passed bottom to top, albeit far below current ground level. I wonder how this bank/mound was formed? Could it be from a former refuge tip, or earth left over from the railway cutting?

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Looking northeast in the direction of the canal with the edge of the tennis court just in view on the left and Shooters Hill in the background to the right--reminiscent of that painting. The railway cutting descends steeply to the right. Here, the canal made a slight turn from northeast more towards the northerly direction.

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Still looking northeast in the direction of the canal, which passed straight underneath that Tennis court.

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Back down to true ground level with the northern bank of the mound just behind us.

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Curious objects lining the eastern side of this area.

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Similar to previous views, but closer towards the tennis court.

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Side on view of the area between the Tennis court and mound. One lock would have been located to the left; another to the right.

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Looking northeast beyond the tennis court, facing the square rose garden and the course of the former canal.

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Looking back at the tennis court.

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Side on view of this area. The canal would have passed from one side of the picture to the other.

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Looking southwest roughly in the direction where the canal would have run over this square rose garden of the crematorium.

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The railway cutting and steepness of the bank is clearly evident here.

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Looking east, the canal passed across what is now this circular garden, from right to left in front of where the cameraman was standing. One lock would have been located to the left; another to the right; also, a swingbridge.

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Looking northeast, the canal passed through that fence and along Brockley Mews. Were 2 more locks located on the site of that first block of flats?

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Looking southwest, back in the direction of Brockley Mews.

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The Brockley Way footbridge seen from the east and west. The swingbridge would have been located just to the left of the lower view with 2 locks not far of either side.

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A look at the western bank of the railway, where the canal would have passed, still not aligned with the railway line at this point.

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Looking along the edge of the railway line, the course of the canal is now out of view, on the other side of the metal fencing. The last view shows the steep bank down to the railway line, where most of the canal must have been cut away. Several locks would have been located along this stretch.

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The Dalrymple Road footbridge, where another swingbridge would have formally been located, as well as two more locks.
Correction: no swingbridge here.

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Looking southeast at the top of the bank where the canal may have passed towards us.

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A look at the western bank, south of the footbridge.

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A look at the western bank, north of the footbridge. The canal would have now gone on to be completely aligned with the railway as far as Brockley station.
Last edited by Falkor on 29 Jan 2008 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
MartinH
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Location: Sydenham SE26

Post by MartinH »

A brilliant and commendable effort !! Absolutely fascinating.
will greenwood
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Location: moorlinch

Post by will greenwood »

well done mate...
sterling effort indeed....although I am beginning to see it a little further to the east , certainly the part by the tree surgeons...
I cant wait to come and have a look myself..
I may pop down next week.

(also...apparently the Dalrymple rd bridge was post Railway, there was no bridge at that point it seems)
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

If you take those semi-detached houses as a starting point for the canal at Honor Oak Park then it should line up more with your blue line--if anything, slightly more to the west of that. I'm willing to bet a high sum, based mainly on Wills excellent research and my own research into the Forest Wood section, that the canal did not join up with the railway alignment until after leaving Dalrymple Road footbridge towards Brockley station; therefore, below this point the canal was always to the west of the railway.
will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

...and looking at these maps, I am beginning to agree...
nothing like a debate to focus the mind...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/222 ... 6fe7_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2223/222 ... 5283_o.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2130/222 ... b023_b.jpg

( this one shows 'Dead Lane' accross lock 22 as well....also, the 1833 map show a definite natural scarp on the east away from the tow path...or right next to..seeing as it was reknowned for the views....
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

BTW, I've corrected the mistake about the Dalrymple Road swingbridge, and also added a mention of the swingbridge near the circular garden.
will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

nice one.
in fact...while we're talking about swing bridges...
I cant actually find any reference on any mao to the swing bridge at sydenham park...although at least 2 repurted sources mention it....
one for the other thread, perhaps..
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

There's nothing on "the" estate map to indicate a bridge or even a path, since Sydenham Park wasn't even formed at the time. There did seem to be a trackway across Sydenham Park Road (acting as dam), but that's about all. Dog Kennel Houses were too far down. No reason for a swingbridge at Sydenham Park.
will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

thats what i thought....just a bit of wishful thinking on someones part, that a bridge would coincide with the railway bridge...
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

Exactly. The "official" map shows an intended reservoir and what some people might mistake as a swingbridge, but is really an intended feeder. We know from county maps and the painting of Sydenham Common that no secondary reservoirs were dug here.
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

This 1841 Wyld map shows the old canal footpaths still running across the croydon line, including the "dead lane" seen on the 1833 Cruchley map.
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will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

..I overlayed the 1850's whittaker map , roughly...lining up dead lane etc....and we see the canal diverge from the top of the scarp and down, where the locks would be...the top point woukld have been further back , having been levelled with spoil from the railway cutting.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2189/222 ... 6827_b.jpg


I reckon we're pretty close to being in the right place now.
the bend in the paths as they cros the canal seem to show the point of the bridges.
all good stuff!! :shock: :idea:
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

Good work! That seems to support my hypothesis re: west of the railway line.

Hey, I've figured out how to solve this once and for all! This is the map I intend to order:
http://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/coll ... &sp=X&sp=2
I already recognise some of the field boundaries, and so this estate map can be superimposed onto the 1843 Tithe map*; these combined layers can then be superimposed onto an aerial photo. We will then have true accuracy, my friend, of the canal course and all locks from "dead lane" to just beyond the Dalrymple Road footbridge!

*Lining up field boundaries is the way to go!
will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

sounds good to me...i dont think we'll be far off...
I wish we could get in there witha JCB...then we'd find something, eh?
will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

Definitely!

This is looking VERY good! I'm superimposing the preview image of the aforementioned estate map onto the tithe map as we speak... Besides the field boundaries, even 2 small ponds to the west are starting to line up! :shock:
sugahill cafe
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Post by sugahill cafe »

From time to time i find myself brousing your pages and i have to say i find your posts fascinating, love brousing over all the old pictures and maps and cant wait to see how your honor oak dig goes who needs the time team eh nice to learn something here instead of all the old coffee debates etc i end up involved in for obvious reasons good luck chris
Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

This isn't looking very good at all... :evil: Did the canal go as far as the other side of the railway line? :D Have I made a mistake? Is the estate map not accurate enough? Everything lined up fairly well... Damn. :?
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Falkor
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Post by Falkor »

Can't get red to meet the orange, so there must be a mistake somewhere...
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Best place to dig is definitely at the foot of the mound (northern bank):
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will greenwood
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Post by will greenwood »

doesnt look quite right to me...
perhaps its not as accurate as you expected...the length of the pounds aredifferent, so your allignment might be off.
I agree about the bank....(i'd like a 60 foot trench 3 yards wide, please)

but i'm pleased at how close i've got with the locks...once the course is finalised, it'll be a doddle....shame we cant dig up the crematorium, for lock 22......
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