Council rules and cafes

[leenewham]

Most councils charge cafes to put tables and chairs outside if its on the public highway. One council Paid hundreds of thousands of pounds resurfacing a road to encourage cafe culture in one part if town (the only problem is that it was a hill and there were few cafes in the street and they charged everyone for putting out tables and chairs which meant...yep you guessed it, hardly anyone did it).

Do you think independent cafes (not chains) should be encouraged to have tables outside on suitably wide pavements?

Should corner sites in high streets have planning priority for certain types of businesses like cafes?

If you think tables outside of cafes is a good idea, how can this be encouraged.

It would be great to hear more from different people than the normal posters and some cafe or shop owners. Perhaps Michael can get some traders from se23 to comment? Perhaps some sydsoc glitterati might want to join in the debate and what are the views of the portas team and our cllrs?

We are working with a number if councils across London and we always listen to what business owners have to say and this keeps coming up time and time again.

As the high street is the focus of the Jill hub in the high street at present, it makes sense to discuss high street issues.

Discuss.

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[michael]

Do you think independent cafes (not chains) should be encouraged to have tables outside on suitably wide pavements?

Should corner sites in high streets have planning priority for certain types of businesses like cafes?

I can only really talk about the areas I know best. But I would start by saying that you should not have a rule that only suits independents rather than chains. When Costa opens in Catford they should have just as much right to have tables outside as an independent coffee chain. Similarly just because Antic or the Dolphin are part of a chain does not mean they should not have seats outside.

Many high streets are quite narrow, and it is right that councils prevent businesses taking up large amounts of pavement with seating. But there are actually quite a few cafes with seats outside in Forest Hill. The swimming pool was built with such space, but there are also tables outside From the Forest, St Davids, Question Bar, Sylvan Post, Canvas and Cream, Bird in Hand, on the Hoof. And other pubs have outdoor space that is separated from the pavement - Capitol, Dartmouth Arms, Foresters. Sylvan Post have said that they intend to expand the outdoor eating area in front of the pub, and there is plenty of space for this to happen.

I'm sure that with the improvements to Sydenham Road there will be more opportunities for cafes to use the expanded pavements, as long as it doesn't block the way for pedestrians (as it does below where I work).

But I'm not sure why people would want to eat next to a congested road rather than some of the lovely pub gardens or local park that exist away from the noise and busyness of the high street. And the kids can run around and enjoy themselves without the worry of the road beyond.

So I'm really not sure how much of an issue this is in Sydenham and Forest Hill given our domination by major roads covered in traffic. If some of the roads were pedestrianised then I think you would have a much better case for al fresco cafe culture.

[leenewham]

What I'm really getting at is that just having tables outside of cafes is a great advert for the cafe, even if they aren't used. Just like having flowers on the pavement outside of a flower shop is the best advert a flower shop could have (like the one in West Norwood).

But councils charge for this.

If there is enough room for people to walk past, if councils are really interested in having a vibrant high street, shouldn't having table and chairs outside of cafes be something that councils encourage rather than discouraged which they currently are by charging a fee or fining cafe's?

[Rachael]

St David Coffee Shop in Forest Hill has two little tables outside, perched above the thundering South Circular. Not exactly salubrious, but I have sat there on a nice day when the cafe was full because a) I'd arranged to meet a friend there and b) the coffee there is so good I'd rather sit outside inhaling bus exhaust fumes with my coffee than go elsewhere.

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[michael]

St David Coffee Shop in Forest Hill has two little tables outside, perched above the thundering South Circular. Not exactly salubrious, but I have sat there on a nice day when the cafe was full because a) I'd arranged to meet a friend there and b) the coffee there is so good I'd rather sit outside inhaling bus exhaust fumes with my coffee than go elsewhere.

Actually rather a nice little spot set back from the traffic, but I wouldn't want to eat outside the Teapot.
When London Road was closed due to sewer replacement a couple of years ago we did arrange a picnic in the middle of the South Circular.


But if the tables on the pavement are not expected to be used, but are just there as an advert for the shop inside, I don't think this is a good use of the space, especially on busy high streets. Personally what I find works really well (although you may be better qualified to provide an opinion) is the minimum separation between the street and the shop, so you can just wander in without realising you are shopping. When the weather is good and the front of Canvas and Cream and Question Bar are removed completely I think they are much more likely to attract custom. Similarly with plenty of glass in shops (From the Forest rather than St Davids) people feel more able to enter the shop. This has to be balanced against the needs of a conservation area which are more problematic for independent shops than chains with giant familiar signs above the shop.

I thought I would see if I can find out how much Lewisham charges for tables outside. The results from Google appear to be £5 per sq metre per week according to a licensing committee report from 2005. This applies to any outside space within 7 metres of the street. That is the equivalent to the cost of 2 cups of coffee per week for each table. Surrey (came up in Google) charges £100 per year for up to 10 sq metres - which is obviously better value for shops. I suspect the councils try to set the pricing at the point that the market can take. I'm not convinced that either price point would be prevent cafes putting tables outside if they were to attract custom, rather than acting purely as an advert.

My focus is on Forest Hill and at present there is only one cafe/pub that I think should have more tables outside. But the opportunities in Sydenham may be considerably different after the street works.

[stuart]

I assume most of us are very envious of the cafe culture that pervades most of continental Europe. Eating and drinking outside no matter what the weather.

If we really want good attractive space for the cafe and the pedestrian - something has to give. And it is standing there ready to be taken. 15 feet of width is currently taken by parked cars who are contributing nothing but blocking off space in an ugly way.

I know our local retailers are fixated with on-street parking. Despite all the evidence they believe it increases trade. Well it does to the ATMs!

Consider a Sydenham Road with no on-street parking except for disabled bays able to take the same amount of traffic but opening up a huge opportunity for outside retailing of every sort. A pleasant place to walk, a pleasant place to browse, a pleasant place to eat and drink with friends. That may bring Sydenham people back to Sydenham instead of driving them off to Bell Green.

Day dreaming?

Stuart

[LivesNearby]

This document by TfL provides some useful guidance as to minimum widths (2m), which means that most of Forest Hill and Sydenham's pavements are too narrow for tables and chairs. However, the majority of those that have tables outside in Forest Hill are using their Frontage zone (which they own and can do what they like with).

Lewisham's current charges are £30 plus £5 per square meter per week. Lewisham currently require that a 2.1 metre (7ft) clear pedestrian footway must be maintained. For comparison, Tower Hamlets charge £120 admin plus £1 per square meter per day for up to six months. After that you have to reapply.

Where else can the smokers sit these days?

Despite all the evidence they believe [on street parking] increases trade.

Sources?

[michael]

I don't think it is just the parking that is the problem. For on street dining to catch on what you really need is massively wider pavements - Champs-Élysées style, full pedestrianisation - like the Lanes in Brighton, or large town squares where everything happens. Alternatively we could just build large shopping centres like Croydon, Bromley, Lewisham - where people can eat and shop inside but outside, with ample parking provided without the need to cross busy roads with bags of shopping. It sounds really attractive until you realise that they only contain chain stores or are full of empty units. Independents don't survive in shopping centres.

But I think that the widening of pavements on Sydenham Road is still a good step in the right direction.

[stuart]

Despite all the evidence they believe [on street parking] increases trade.

Sources?

Google pedrianisation increases trade. Sorry I'm just getting of a train in Brum so don't have time to list them all ...

You can also do your own arithmetic in what 200 sq ft of space occupied by a single persons car can de;liver (see rental value) compared to what they spend in the shop. Its awfully inefficient (free) use of valuable space.

Charging the driver the same as the retailer might be an interesting clash in free market thinking

Stuart

[hairybuddha]

Maybe slightly off topic but, in the context of on street parking, this link is a good demonstration of the effects of allocating space to different types of use: http://www.bikehub.co.uk/news/sustainab ... on-giving/

I think Stuart has it spot on. Sitting at tables outside a cafe only becomes attractive when the environment is attractive. One way to achieve this would be complete pedestrianisation of the High St (though this wouldn't deal with the ruffians that linger outside the Two Halfs). Another solution would be to reduce the space allocated to motor vehicles (both parked and in transit), working to reduce through traffic and the speed of said through traffic whilst providing more opportunities for people to walk and cycle around the area.

Sydenham High St is a looooooooong way from achieving this but is moving in the right direction. The newly pedestrianised entrance to Venner Rd is crying out for a little coffee stall and a few tables and chairs.

[Eagle]

Hairy B.

You speak a lot of sense. A pedestrianised High Street would be an ideal , however firstly no idea how traffic would get through and secondly as you point out most tactfully the all day slobs or drinkers.

Cafe culture on the pavements would be great with no traffic. Maybe they could pave the whole area but allow at slow speeds , Buses , emergency services and disabled vehicles.

Lets face the facts that most people in SE26 do not need a car.

Great idea but regret cannot see it getting of the ground. Would think few if any locals would object. However Council would not permit as through traffic would have no where to go.

[hairybuddha]

I certainly don't think that a pedestrianised High St would happen, we can but dream. It's just such a shame that our High St is currently configured to allow maximum throughput of vehicles at speed on their way to other bits of the borough/wider area. What a pity that it is not configured in the best interests of those who live here.

(Coming back to the original subject) I think the point I was trying to make above was that, even if the council made it compulsory for businesses to provide seating outside their properties, who in their right mind would want to spend time lingering, contemplating the noise, exhaust fumes and ugly streetscape.

[Steveofsyd]

Just joined tonight and this is my second post on the subject of tables...see the Greyhound topic. Anyway I firmly believe that if we start to have good cafes with tables outside that people will come. Why would Sydenham be any different than every other "aspiring village" in London. Look around Clapham and east London - the streets are busier than Sydenham, yet the cafes are full. In the Summer I find myself wishing that our high street was like that.
Outside seating on Summer evenings when the streets are empty would brighten the place up.
In my other post I suggested demolishing the old Greyhound shell and building a nice piazza with some trees, a Cafe Rouge , Costa and nice independent there with tables and chairs. Preferable to shops which closed their shutters every night making a no mans land. What a great entrance to Sydenham that would be!

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[leenewham]

It's not the right place for it unfortunately Steve. I want the Greyhound finished. Sainsbury's will be the first thing you see when you come into Sydenham, from either end otherwise. The units behind the Greyhound are empty shells, no independent shop will go in there. So it will be a brand. I doubt if a costa will go there either, they rarely go into empty shells and being next to a Sainsbury's isn't exactly inspirational for some more upmarket brands either.

Aside from that I agree with you!

[Steveofsyd]

Hi leenewham. Shame really. I always wanted the Greyhound there but the way things are looking I hold little hope for a decent pub. I pictured a great congregation space/ focal point for people with seats outside. Unfortunately the dark alley around the back doesn't look like anything but a muggers alley or place for drunks to have a sneaky pee after the shops are shut, and the awful flats overshadow everything. The council had a great opportunity and messed it up. The other place would have been the square by Pedders but it was sold to yet another estate agent. The council or whomever is to blame has absolutely no foresight.

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[Steveofsyd]

I used to live in Barry road East Dulwich from the mid 70's to the late 80's and the area around Lordship Lane was a bit of a dump. Now look at it and the surrounding pubs. Sydenham planners need to aspire beyond the dreadful shops full of tat, fast food chicken outlets or nail bars. And definitely no more estate agents!!!

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[JRobinson]

traffic has to go over the railway, and this happens at Sydenham Rail station, and the nearest alternatives are not really alternatives for most people driving, so this would have to stay open. Thus reducing the options for which parts of the main road you could feasibly close off/pedestrianise - traffic could potentially go up Silverdale, along Bishopsthorpe, and down Mayow Road, but that would then create it's own set of issues with a lot more traffic in The Thorpes, etc. all in all probably not very likely at all to end up with any part of Sydenham Road pedestrianised.

instead of table and chairs, how about benches, or tall stools with a breakfast bar type arrangement - these would take up less room, but still allow the 'outside drinking/eating' affect.
also easier to move or cover when it rains.

I would sit out somewhere in the sun, in the summer - somewhere like Hardedge cafe in Penge is quite nice.

[hairybuddha]

The only traffic that needs to go over the railway here is the traffic that needs access to the shops and residential streets. I bet the silly man in the clapped out old Golf that almost knocked me off my bike this morning wasn't local and wasn't lingering to enjoy the ambience, maybe have a sneaky coffee in Kente. That's why I would make it shared use from Cobbs corner to Mayow Rd with access only, no through traffic and goods restrictions at certain times. The huge volume of through traffic that we have to put up with gives absolutely no benefit to the community. It could easily be funnelled through Penge and Catford leaving Sydenham as a little oasis of calm.

Of course I know that this won't happen but it's a good example of what could happen. On the continent, where citizens and Governments actually care about public spaces, this is how Sydenham High St would be designed.