Help with nightmare neighbor

[McGinty]

Hi, this is my first time here.

I'm hoping someone can advise me on how best to deal with this tricky, worrying problem.

My mum's been in her council flat, on a Lewisham estate for 35 years. Just over a year ago a family of 3 moved in upstairs. They've put down laminate flooring (before then, it was always carpeted) and now every noise is magnified.

The worst comes at night: Someone stays up through much of the night doing what sounds like DIY - bangs, thuds etc. As you can imagine it doesn't need to be particularly loud to be disturbing on a laminate floor well past midnight - some noises are loud, but the noise in general is constant. This has been going on for a year, now.

Even on the odd occasion when it's quiet at night, my mum doesn't sleep, worried that it may well start anytime.

She's knocked and asked them politely to stop (she's very polite, gentle and old fashioned) but they've dismissed her; once telling her that they didn't want carpet as it didn't go with their decor; twice the man has shut the door in my mum's face; and once the man shut the door and said "Die..." from behind the closed door.

I'm not as old fashioned as my mum and obviously wanted to go up there myself when she told me this today (sometime after the event), but i don't want to make things worse for her, as she feels intimidated and isolated enough already.

she's in her 70s - a heart-attack survivor - and I'm extremely concerned about her health - she's sleeping very little now, despite using earplugs, and is constantly tired, depressed and worried.

She's told her GP, hoping she might write a letter for the council to impress upon them the effect of this situation upon my mum's health if nothing is done. The GP's unsympathetic advice was to call the council - the GP wouldn't do anything unless the council contact the GP first!

I find this unbelievable, considering my mum's age and medical condition. I must admit that i'm tempted to go to the newspapers if the GP reacts this way again; perhaps futile, but i'm feeling very frustrated by the lack of support shown to her.

The council don't seem interested unless it's an obvious, extremely loud offender. I've told her to go back to the GP again, and to pester the council, and i will do the same. But otherwise I'm at a loss and as i said, i'm becoming very worried for her well being.

Can anyone advise on the best, or any, course of action, please? Are their rules about carpets in council flats - surely it can't be permissible to lay laminate in a council flat, particularly in the bedroom.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

[bigbadwolf]

Apart from forcing entry to the offending abode and applying scattergun justice, can't you try and gather signatures on a petition explaining the problem? There must be other people who are being disturbed by this inconsiderate prat.

[lbere]

I think (but Im not sure) that if you have people living below you and you have a laminated floor that you have to make sure that its 'padded' so that the noise does not travel.

[DanW]

These links may be of use:

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/Environment/ ... cNoise.htm

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/Environment/ ... eighbours/

[Eagle]

This is a very serious and difficult subject and my sympathy very much with your poor mother.

Unless I am missing something surely as subsidised by us council tenants the Council should instruct they to lay a carpet or get evicted

[McGinty]

Thanks everyone for your replies and support.

bigbadwolf, I can't really get a petition, as their flat isn't adjacent any other bedrooms to the sides, or below. BTW, thanks for the picture - made me laugh, which doesn't happen too often right now. I'm 'aiming' to sort this out peacefully, for my mum's sake.

Eagle, If only the council were that decisive and governed by moral law, rather than bureaucratic. I'm hoping that they do eventually pull their wait, do the right thing and protect the vulnerable and innocent against the bullies, here.

DanW, thanks for the links, they'll be of great use.

lbere, this is the make or break of the situation, i guess. If there are rules, then the council must enforce them. It's just a question of whether the council do indeed have such a tenancy rule about laminated flooring. I'll let you know soon as i find out.

I grew up on that estate and remember how civilized and considerate the neighbors once were. It's very sad how much that seems to have changed. These selfish, ignorant people turn communities into ghettos far more effectively than any recession.

[DanW]

McGinty, best of luck with getting this sorted for your mother. I've thankfully only had to deal with nightmare neighbours once before (about 5 years ago), so I fully appreciate how stressful the situation can be and what a difference it makes if you have a-holes affecting your home life.

Good luck!

Dan

[Eagle]

Not sure which ward you live in but I have always found local councillors very helpful and usually do their best to sort out and of course they carry weight at the Council.

Go into Council web sire and find Councillor's details

Very best of luck.

[leenewham]

I had a problem with a noisy (and very anti-social) shop and found Lewisham Council to be worse than useless, especially Sir Steve Bullocks office who were, frankly, totally and utterly pathetic.

I totally sympathize with your situation. I suffered from depression and would sleep on the floor at work to avoid going back to my home. I would sleep all weekend because of stress. It is awful.

If the people upstairs are the leaseholders and you know the freeholder, than it's more than likely that they have contravened the terms of their lease. It is possible to have laminate flooring with good insulation under it that doesn't cause a lot of noise.

If they are part of a housing association, then contact whoever is the local co-ordinator or housing officer. However, it appears as if the Council and not the housing association actually decide who goes where within the borough so you may have to endure some less informed in the council telling you a load of nonsense as in my experience many in Lewisham Council don't know their a*se from their elbow.

Hopefully my opinion will change over time as the council improves, which it is, of course, going to do!

I really hope that you have good fortune in getting this sorted. I really do. Good luck.

[McGinty]

Thanks for your support and words of advice DanW, Eagle, and leenewham.

I called the Lewisham website Environmental Enforcement today. They said gave me the number Lewisham Homes Anti-social Behavior Team.

Lewisham Homes said they no longer deal with my mum's estate after October and gave me the number of London & Quadrant Housing Association's Anti-social Behavior Team... I can see a lot of elderly, vulnerable people having given up by now.

The lady i spoke to at Lewisham Homes did tell me that a new law/rule was made by Lewisham Council in April 2009 that tenants with neighbors below could not lay laminate flooring unless they had permission from the council and it was properly sound-proofed. If they'd laid it before this date, then they could keep it so long as it was properly sound-proofed. This got my hopes up...

However, i called London & Quadrant Housing Association's Anti-social Behavior Team and spoke to Lorretta Taylor, who told me that the man i needed to speak to, Tunde Taiwo, was out. She took detail and was sympathetic. However, she said that this may go to court and that my mum would have to keep a diary of the noise.

I appreciate this, but such things that will cause my mum further stress could be avoided if the council had rules about laminate flooring - either they are being broken or not?!

Lorretta refused to tell me these rule, or indeed even say if their were any. I mentioned that Lewisham Homes had told me there were rules, but Lorretta would not tell me them, saying this was out of context and that first my mum had to explain to them everything that was happening and keep a diary, so they could investigate further.

To be honest she wasn't really making sense, since if there's rules then this is surely the first issue to resolve - are they breaking them? She didn't seem interested in the notion of fixing this situation quickly, but instead initiation a painful exposition.

She excused herself briefly and returned to say that new tenants should ask permission to put down laminate flooring, but if they have already put it down, then it is too late, since the tenants may not have the funds to remove it.

I pointed out the loop-hole: that if they ask permission the council may say no, but if they lay it without asking, then the council can do nothing... This was met with silence. So basically my mum has to put up with it, unless this Team can prove they are anti-social.

I'm expecting a call from Tunde to arrange an appointment with myself and my mum. I'd be grateful for any advice on how to deal with this appointment - what i should say, and how i might prepare, since i've so far been given the impression that if i don't know what to ask for, they they may well not give me the full picture.

BTW, is it illegal to record this meeting with my ipod mic, so i can hold them to any statements about the rules etc? Or perhaps i should bring a third person as witness!

Again, thanks for the time it takes to respond. This forum is without doubt the only place i've found help so far.
Would they say yes if i asked them if i can record it.

[Eagle]

What a nightmare for your mother and you. Surely it is logical if you live in a flat , not on the ground floor, you should have a carpet.
I would imagine the people making the rules and enforcing them live in posh houses.
Being Housing Association it is subsidised and therefore the tenants should do as they are told. Simple as that.

I wish you the very best of luck. I would still recommend you get one of your local councilors on side and they may even come with you to the meeting.

[dickp]

No question: She is going to have to get unpleasant with them - and that basically means using the law to enfore her rights.

The freeholder of the property is normally legally required to enforce lease conditions (i.e. no laminated floooring). So they should take the lead in making sure the laminate floor is replaced. If the other person in the property does not comply, they will be in breach of their lease and can be chucked out.

You can also get low cost legal letters, from around £50. I have no idea how good they are, but there are loads of providers out there. For example:

http://www.halifaxlegalexpress.co.uk/ha ... 0#services

Also, see the views of Olly300, which basically explains the options open to you:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... ?t=2708705

[KM]

Hi
I've PM'ed you

Kate

[McGinty]

I wish you the very best of luck. I would still recommend you get one of your local councilors on side and they may even come with you to the meeting.

Thanks Eagle, i'll look into that.

[Weeble]

Is your mum keeping a diary of the noise? If not, it’s probably best to start doing this now – the HA has already suggested they’ll need this, and you don’t want to be in a position where you need one later and then have delay things whilst you build enough evidence. Even if you don’t strictly speaking need one, it adds weight to your case.

Also it’s a small way of taking back some control – every time the noise occurs and you’re noting it down, it’s one more little step along the way to gathering enough evidence to end this.

As for recording the conversation – I think it’s fine if you ask permission and they agree, although you could find this is counterproductive as they might be more cautious about what they tell you if they know it’s being recorded. You might be better off taking detailed notes.

Overall, I’d say it’s worth always keeping in mind is the outcome you want: for your mum to be able to sleep soundly at night without stress. I know that sounds obvious, but in situations like this it can be easy to get caught up in a desire for some kind of retribution or to get caught up in a 'them and us' mentality. Remember, there’s no-one involved in this who actually wants your mum to suffer – not the Council, not the Housing Association, not even the neighbours themselves. They might have different priorities and differing levels of commitment to resolving the problem, but on some level you’re actually all on the same side. It’s hard to remember this when people are being unhelpful, obstructive or plain rude but try to keep focused on the idea that it’s about finding a solution, not winning an argument.

Good luck – I’m sure your support means the world to your mum.