hope it's not an urban myth

[sydenhamboy]

I heard from a friend of a friend (doesn't bode well does it?) that the old HSBC Bank might be turning into a Pizza Express. How cool would that be? However it is a rumour but I wondered if anyone else had heard a similar claim.

[leenewham]

Unfortunately it's not true. I write to Pizza Express a month ago to urge them to consider moving into the building.

The wrote back and said they have no plans to open in the area. I contacted Prezzo and Zizzi but got no reply.

However is anyone else wants to write to them, if enough people write then they may take notice.

Hopefully if enough people in Sydenham back the plans to rejuvenate the 'high street'(including filling in Scotts survey) we can turn the situation around and make a difference for good.

I can let a little secret out of the bag, the chemists next door to the old HSBC is going to be an upmarket hairdressers/salon according to my spies. They are not allowed to change the shop front. Hopefully they will do a good job and properly design their branding and frontage, unlike other hairdressers in the vicinity!

[Dotkin]

Why oh why would we need yet another hairdressers on the high street? I can think of at least 7 that are there already........

[lambchops]

why oh why do people want a bloody pizza express is a better question.

[simon]

Got to agree with Mr Chops here. Pizza Express is rubbish in my experience. I've had half decent pizza from some Zizzi's but quality varies from branch to branch. Ive never had a decent one in any Pizza Express, except the one that does live jazz in Dean Street.
Aren't people confisuing having a vibrant high street with just getting some different brands in; Cafe Nero for Morleys, Pizza Express for HSBC? Waitrose for Somerfield/Liddle?

[Rebelmc]

I heard from a friend of a friend (doesn't bode well does it?) that the old HSBC Bank might be turning into a Pizza Express. How cool would that be? However it is a rumour but I wondered if anyone else had heard a similar claim.

If you want to be 'cool' and have a night out in a Pizza Express, why not take a short bus trip up the hill to Crystal Palace and visit the one that's been on Westow Street for donkey's years?

[sydenhamboy]

Fair point Rebelmc but I was really suggesting that it would be pleasant having something 'reasonably nice' in our highstreet which, at present, still looks pretty ... 'crap'. There, I've said it.

I know Pizza Express isn't amazing; but I think people need not be so negative about 'respected' chains in Sydenham - because it's all relative isn't it? So next time for 'cool' (when speaking about our High Street) read 'not crap for once'.

[Thomas]

Well I for one would welcome Pizza Express coming to the high street. They've always been reasonably good in my experience and I think that it would do well here and it would certainly do more for the area than an empty bank building. OK it might not be to everyone's tastes but there is plenty of room for a wide variety of businesses here so I don't think that it will crowd out any rivals.

It is of course uncertain right now as to whether they will come - perhaps the economic downturn might affect their plans. I don't think the owners (Gondola holdings, owned in turn by Cinven holdings) will say until they're ready to.

Would they need to apply to change the use of the building? Would that not show up on the planning section of Lewisham Council's website?

[Ronski]

If it comes to having a chain restaurant on the high street versus an empty building/shop I know which one I'd prefer!

Having a lovely family run Italian that was kid friendly did great food etc. that would of course be my preference but how do we get that? It's tricky as I do hate the way every high street ends up becoming variations on the same thing when chains move in. I think the chains are able to test new business out because they have larger resources.

It's also down to what people want though, a successful high street or a half empty one?

[leenewham]

If you want to be 'cool' and have a night out in a Pizza Express, why not take a short bus trip up the hill to Crystal Palace and visit the one that's been on Westow Street for donkey's years?

I've never heard Pizza Express called 'cool' before!

We don't have ANYWHERE to eat Pizza in Sydenham. Pizza GOGO is awful.

Wouldn't it be better to have a Pizza Express in Sydenham rather than going to Crystal palace, therefore attracting people to our High Street? Why not close all the shops in Sydenham High Street because you can get the same things elsewhere?

As for the argument "aren't we just swapping one brand for another such as the HSBC for Pizza Express". I don't know if anyone has noticed, the old HSBC is an Empty shop, of no use to anyone. So yes, i'd much rather it become a good quality pizza restaurant or similar, chain or not.

I like Pizza Express. I don't have a problem with brands. A lot of them are good. I like Pizza Express personally, although I'd prefer Zizzi or the Gourmet Pizza Company.

You can't keep the high street as it is. It has to improve. That improvement does not mean that every shop will be a large chain. The high street is for everyone.

[Paddy Pantsdown]

Don't want to be a party pooper but ... with credit crunch I would have thought most CEOs of the major retail chains would be embarking on a brisk task of de-risking their businesses. Looking to get the best out of their existing stock and not making themselves victims to an increasing rental base. I may be wrong but the responses correspondents here who have had replies from the major brands do tend to confirm 'no interest'.

Is this a bad or an opportunity? What is the point in turning Sydenham Road into a clone of so many surburban centres? They are only a bus ride away anyway.

A real choice would be a selection of 'independents' offering something different. Kirkdale Bookshop, Wellbeing, Whites Pet shop, Sydenham DIY are surely more desireable than their retail chain equivelents. Hang on - there are no retail chain equivelents. These Sydenham stores actually widen the choice of what and how you can buy. The oft quoted 'brands' reduce.

The chains maybe better at training people. As the majors dig-in for the crunch their more enterprising managers must be feeling frustrated. Just the time to think about doing something for themselves. Now is the time to have schemes to tempt this talent into setting up shop here. Our MP is supposed to be the champion of small shops. Perhaps we ought to be geting him to sponsor some innovative programmes in Sydenham. An ideal place with:

* Comparitively low rents for London
* Enormous varied population if you can extend the catchment area
* Wide roads, some decent vacant stock
* A very welcome, demanding and organised community
* Some of the more enlightened local polliticians/planing people

Perhaps something Scott & Lee might want to look into?

PP

[scott.l.hamilton]

PP,

Suffice it to say, we are on the same page. If half of what we want to accomplish gets done I think Sydenham will be pleased!

Syd Soc has some great ideas and Tim Lund is tremendous resource on this project. Also, traders want change and are just a bit stymied. I am very excitied by what is happening and being discussed so far.

[Richie]

I would welcome a Pizza Express and I think this sort of reasonably priced family friendly restuarant would do very well. I went to the Mexican (to my mind the nearest equivalent in Sydenham) a couple of Friday's ago and it was completely packed- no tables at all.

I would not want to see quality local businesses pushed out in favour of a load of chains, but there is room for everyone. If Pizza Express, or similar, drew people to Sydenham that can only be a good thing for all traders. The HSBC would make an excellent restaurant/bar, especially with the likelihood of the top of Venner Road being turned into a market square.

What Sydenham certainly does not need is another hairdresser/beauty salon. It was mentioned that it will be high quality, but I bet all the other hairdressers in the high street think they are high quality too, when clearly most of them aren't. Who gave the okay for this?

[georgemichael]

I agree with PP -

Jim Dowd is an MP responsible for small shops, we should be lobbying him.

I think a few chain stores/restaurants would pull other small traders into Sydenham Road, but in my experience, the smaller cafes and bistros have a better customer service. Usually the owners are at the front of the house and actually want customers to enjoy their experience.

In today's economic state, it is risky for investors to try a new location and /or venture. I would love more quality restaurants and shops in Sydenham but it's not going to happen in the next couple of years, at least until the ELLX opens.

I would like to see a modestly priced, healthy Chinese/Thai noodle bar type reatuarant that both Crystal Palace and Forest Hill have. Not necessarily "Wagamamas" but something that's easy and quick. Branded correctly, it could be a hit.

[MissDee]

I do agree, we do not need another hair dresser, the hight street is full of it already.
A nice quality restaurant or shop would be great though!!

[nasaroc]

I too would welcome a mix of independent shops and chains - if it's good quality and fits a need, who cares where it comes from.

Richie - you ask the question about the new hairdresser: "Who gave the okay for this?"

Unfortunately planning in Sydenham isn't a case of encouraging specific shops and services onto the high street. There isn't someone with a shopping list of new and desirable businesses who is waving through "good" businesses and telling "bad" ones that they shouldn't come here.

Almost every shop in the high street is privately owned, most by landlords. There are specific restrictions about preparing and selling food for which planning permission is needed. But other than that, provided a new business is not breaking the law and the tenant looks as if they can pay the rent, in they come.

This leads inevitably to a plethora of "me too" businesses so you have 10 hairdressers, 10 estate agents and 6 pound shops etc etc

Without specific guidelines - supplementary planning guidance, in the argot - trading on Sydenham Road will remain largely as it is. Quality businesses do not arrive by letting the marketplace sort things out. Specific businesses arrive here by direct intervention and concerted planning. We wouldn't have The Dolphin or the Blue Mountain Cafe, for example, without such planning and intervention.

You can make up as many lists of fantasy businesses you like and do survey after survey of what local people want from their high street. Without intervention and planning all of this is interesting but inconsequential.

There is a clear alternative. Until it happens we'll have to travel to Beckenham for Pizza Express.

[scott.l.hamilton]

Planning and intervention is EXACTLY what we are attempting. The survey is intended to help pinpoint exactly who or what type of shops to approach. Additionally we are hoping to work with property owners so they can see the benefit of working with us to provide "tenants" that will pay the rent for a significant time period as opposed to a 3-6 month failure and then to have to re-let again.

All of this dialogue regarding what people want is helpful in planning and can be used as encouragment to petential investors and existing traders during our "intervention".

[Richie]

I take the point about intervention bringing The Blue Mountain cafe and The Dolphin to Sydenham, and out of interest what form does this intervention take? How were the above mentioned businesses coaxed into setting up shop on the high street?

[leenewham]

A real choice would be a selection of 'independents' offering something different. Kirkdale Bookshop, Wellbeing, Whites Pet shop, Sydenham DIY are surely more desireable than their retail chain equivelents. Hang on - there are no retail chain equivelents. These Sydenham stores actually widen the choice of what and how you can buy. The oft quoted 'brands' reduce.

* Comparitively low rents for London
* Enormous varied population if you can extend the catchment area
* Wide roads, some decent vacant stock
* A very welcome, demanding and organised community
* Some of the more enlightened local polliticians/planing people

Perhaps something Scott & Lee might want to look into?

PP

Dear PP

We are not trying to make Sydenham into clone of other branded high streets. We have not said anything of the sort and we don't want it to be either.

Currently we have many brands in the high street. Boots, Superdrug, Mann Countrywide, Your Move, Somerfield, LA Fitness, Uniplan, GOGO Pizza, Lloyds TSB to name a few.

Don't forget many 'brands' are franchises run by ordinary people.

The trick is getting the balance right. We want to encourage people to start their businesses in Sydenham, to help small businesses compete with the big buys. But we may also try to get a 'quality' brand into the high street if they are the right fit. The High Street has to become a destination, not just a place people pop into on their way home, otherwise everyone WILL get on a bus and go somewhere else.

This is NOT what we want. We want people to pop on a bus and come to Sydenham because it is a vibrant, exciting highstreet with something for everyone, from Semas, to the Kirkdale Bookshop, From the Dolphin to the Blue Mountain Cafe, from the Golden Lion to Candessa. That's a good start.

But it's just a start. The high street can be better.

[nasaroc]

Best of luck to Scott. I support fully what he is doing. Provided he is backed by planning guidance and resources from the local authority, this intervention should prove fruitful. Let us wait and see what develops.

Many of us look to Lordship Lane as a model of development we'd like to see in Sydenham. Within a very short period of time, new quality businesses arrived adding to what was already there, so the area improved without losing its essential character.

But to believe this happened without intervention, would be a fallacy. Following the arrival of Sainsburys on Red Post Hill., Southwark put a huge number of resources into developing Lordship Lane, encouraging existing businesses and bringing in new ones.

High quality personal intervention as well as planning intervention is essential. Neither of those exist in Sydenham or remotely look as if they are going to exist in the near future.

Richie asks how businesses like The Dolphin and Blue Mountain Cafe were brought to Sydenham. By high quality personal intervention and not much else. Hopefully, the new pub/flats by the bridge will also arrive soon via this method.

But none of this came from the planning and management resources of the local authority who instead of acting seem to also be infatuated with compiling "shopping lists" of what the public want via the Sydenham Assembly.

The time for preparing lists should now come to an end and the hard work of regenerating the high street needs to begin.