Going over old ground - The Hound that is Grey

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 13 Jul 2014 16:53

Could be a new Costa Coffee. That would raise the tone.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 17:01

Rachael wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:It helps confirm the semi-official status of SydSoc, and you too now seems, as community representatives.
Here's a question. Who does the site belong to? It is Purelake? Next question: do they have to consult with the community or can they, as a business, consult with whomsoever they like? They have to deal with the council because of the conservation order, but beyond that, is this a meeting of 'community representatives' or just people Purelake think it would be a good idea to consult?

I think the answer is that developers, such as Purelake, work out or are advised who they should consult as 'community representatives', which can be seen anyway from the standard list of consultees on planning applications. I have no doubt that is why the developers of 278-280 Kirkdale would have been put on to Pat as a representative of local opinion. Biscuitman1978 is clearly also in such loops now as well, so good luck to him. But he should expect some scrutiny.

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 17:04

Show me where Biscuitman1978 has claimed to be, or implied that he is a community representative. Or are you just assuming that Purelake are treating him as such?

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 17:07

biscuitman1978 wrote: I'm not prepared to continue this juvenile debate on the Forum, Tim. Please phone me if you feel you really want to continue, but right now I have constructive things to do like volunteer for the arts festival. If that makes me part of the 'local Establishment' then that's great.

Another juvenile attitude might be not being bothered to see a replacement pub. An encouraging fact from the Alcohol Education Trust is that

Underage drinking is falling in the UK, down from 26% of 11 - 15 year olds in 2001 to 13% in 2010 in England – so 87% don’t drink regularly or to excess and the numbers of 11 - 15 year olds who have never drunk alcohol has increased from 40% in 2000 to 55% in 2010.

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 17:10

Rachael wrote:Show me where Biscuitman1978 has claimed to be, or implied that he is a community representative. Or are you just assuming that Purelake are treating him as such?

Biscuitman1978 has been very involved in this case, not in a professional capacity, so I would imagine they see him as a community representative, of sorts. Why is this an important point, anyway?

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 17:16

Pizza Express would be great as would a Costa ...as an alternative to the pub....
I'm all for something that I can go to with the family.....
Anyway....can someone please tell me if everyone is arguing about the building (as something that should be preserved) or the fact that it has to be a pub.
After all....is the conservation order on the building or the business?
Please can someone enlighten me
Thanks

Ps...on the subject of visuals to accompany the questionnaire i would suggest 3
1. The building shown as a wonderful viable pub
2. As above but as a Pizza Express or Costa ( some may want building but not pub)
3. As a piazza with tables and chairs, sculpture and cafés around it...
4. Empty space with tumbleweed and drunks..(joke)
Just an idea....

Tim Lund · Post by **Tim Lund** » 13 Jul 2014 17:23

Steveofsyd - that all sounds very sensible, but perhaps you're missing the importance of the planning history, and the role of planning professionals.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 17:51

I may be missing the "importance......etc" but I asked a simple question...as i don't know the answer (not being a planning professional). However I am a resident of the community so would like to know what is important here.
Perhaps we have lost sight of what is needed or wanted...I have only suggested that we give the majority the choice.
At least the Council might then see what the people who pay for it want - Pub or something else...
What i don't want is another 8 or more years of this eyesore whilst everyone is tied up in red tape..
Are we trying to take longer than Battersea Power Station?

Eagle · Post by **Eagle** » 13 Jul 2014 18:04

Steve

Appreciate your question

The building , as such , has been there about 250 plus years. To be quite frank in the last 40 odd years of being a Pub it was a Dump.

I suspect it may have had good days but a long time ago.

I seem to recall a lot if the historic tiles were in the annex on the Cobb's side , which seems to have vanished.

I believe the preservation order was on the building but Lewisham also , belatedly have a policy of trying to protect Pubs as a community asset.

Even if good old Purelake restore the building it will not be the same building they half pulled down.

Costa Coffee seem a good community option.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 18:12

At last....thanks Eagle....
I was under the impression it was a 250 year old Pub .....so it seems the listed status is on the building...not the use...just slightly muddied by Lewisham wanting to keep pubs.
However we have quite a few pubs...one being within 50 yards of the site.
So perhaps Lewisham might like to consider keeping the building but having it as the aforementioned Pizza express or Costa, as we have precisely zero of those in Sydenham.

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 18:26

Tim Lund wrote:
biscuitman1978 wrote:
Tim Lund wrote:Biscuitman1978 - as someone who was also in the loop re hiatuses in the development of 278 - 280 Kirkdale, you are a paid up member of our local Establishment.

Live with it.
I'm not prepared to continue this juvenile debate on the Forum, Tim. Please phone me if you feel you really want to continue, but right now I have constructive things to do like volunteer for the arts festival. If that makes me part of the 'local Establishment' then that's great.
There's nothing juvenile about transparency, and life within or without the local Establishment can be as good as you want to make it.

I hadn't intended to respond, but feel obliged to do so.

You're right, there's nothing juvenile about transparency, but there's plenty that's juvenile about told to 'live with it'. Your tone and approach does nothing to further whatever case you're trying to make.

I have no idea what you mean about 'life within or without the local Establishment'. The invitation to phone me remains if you want to discuss further.

biscuitman1978 · Post by **biscuitman1978** » 13 Jul 2014 18:32

Steveofsyd wrote:At last....thanks Eagle....
I was under the impression it was a 250 year old Pub .....so it seems the listed status is on the building...not the use...just slightly muddied by Lewisham wanting to keep pubs.
However we have quite a few pubs...one being within 50 yards of the site.
So perhaps Lewisham might like to consider keeping the building but having it as the aforementioned Pizza express or Costa, as we have precisely zero of those in Sydenham.

If and when permission is formally granted for rebuilding, the intention (as it has always been and was under the previous permission) is to grant permission for A3 use (cafes and restaurant) or A4 use (drinking establishments).

That means it could be occupied by a cafe or restaurant, or as a pub.

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 18:39

Thanks again.....very interesting.....

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 18:49

Tim Lund wrote:
Rachael wrote:Show me where Biscuitman1978 has claimed to be, or implied that he is a community representative. Or are you just assuming that Purelake are treating him as such?
Biscuitman1978 has been very involved in this case, not in a professional capacity, so I would imagine they see him as a community representative, of sorts. Why is this an important point, anyway?

I thought YOU though it was important as you raised it in the first place. My mistake.

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 18:56

Steveofsyd - I think the idea of using visuals in a survey is a good idea. Next question is: who would organise and pay for it?

Steveofsyd · Post by **Steveofsyd** » 13 Jul 2014 19:07

Council would commission 3rd party...Purelake to pay, if they want any further business from Lewisham.
Just an idea ....but considering the quagmire that we are currently in....bit like those poor dinosaurs in Crystal Palace Park - stuck in the Tar Pits, i can't see it developing.

Rachael · Post by **Rachael** » 13 Jul 2014 19:21

Thanks for asking the question earlier about use as a restaurant - I'd forgotten that was a possibility and that it's the building that is protected rather than the use. Opens up many more possibilities. In any case, I hope that those who are pushing for something to happen continue to push and this time next year we are looking at a completed project, whichever way it goes.

gillyjp · Post by **gillyjp** » 13 Jul 2014 22:45

Eagle wrote:Steve

Appreciate your question

The building , as such , has been there about 250 plus years. To be quite frank in the last 40 odd years of being a Pub it was a Dump.

I suspect it may have had good days but a long time ago.

I seem to recall a lot if the historic tiles were in the annex on the Cobb's side , which seems to have vanished.

I believe the preservation order was on the building but Lewisham also , belatedly have a policy of trying to protect Pubs as a community asset.

Even if good old Purelake restore the building it will not be the same building they half pulled down.

Costa Coffee seem a good community option.

I'm with you all the way on this one Eagle - Costa Coffee would be great

My preferred option would be a 'Real Greek'. Very nice.

http://www.therealgreek.com/

The likelihood of Purelake doing anything in the foreseeable future with this site is sadly remote. Sorry to be pessimistic....

G-Man · Post by **G-Man** » 14 Jul 2014 07:26

Firstly, thanks to biscuitman1978. Great stuff.

Personally I hope it's not a chain, at least not a major one. And why have a Costa Coffee who serve low rate coffee when you have Sugar Hill just opposite and other excellent independent coffee shops in the vicinity. Do we really want Sydenham to be another hight street in the United States of Generica? Which is what every high street is turning into. And if you want Costa you only have to got to Next near Sainsbury's where there is a concession.

I still think it should be a pub. As I've said time and time, pubs are an essential part of an areas regeneration. Look at Palace. Forest Hill and, before it went crazy, East Dulwich. I walked past last Sunday on my way to the excellent 161 Kirkdale (who serve superb coffee) and imagined what it would be like with a pub there. Families sat outside enjoying and afternoon drink while their children play in a small play area. Nice music coming from inside in a restored pub filled with different age groups enjoying the space.

G-Man

leenewham · Post by **leenewham** » 14 Jul 2014 08:42

I agree G-man.

I hope it's not a chain either. HIgh streets are better when they are different. People rave in Penge about the Bluebell Cafe. I'd rather a On The Hoof, Sugahill, Trattoria, Blue Mountain, Kente, Cherry & Ice, 161 etc anyday in my local high street than what you get everywhere else. That's why I often go to Crystal Palace or Forest HIll, I never go to the chains there. Same in Beckenham, we go for the Deli Nene and others like the amazing Turkish Restaurant Laelezar (also not a chain).

Everyone I know, aside from Tim wants the Greyhound to be finished and turned into a great pub to rival the Dolphin. But I guess that the difference between liven gin Sydenham or living in Forest Hill like Eagle

#rebuildthegreyhound

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