Terry obviously isn't the kind of fella who likes to be interrogated, but perhaps with some luck he'll be in a good mood to answer any questions about his topic. I never did figure out what it is about a) English People b) Answering Questions & c) Ignorance. I'm English, but then I'm not your stereotypical Brit! It's better when you talk to people on the phone then they are more obliged to answer, but when it comes to writing, people's true colours are revealed. Remember, when you speak to somebody in person, in most cases they would rather much ignore you, but it's more difficult for them in that situation. Psychology is so sad. Anyway, here goes...
1) In or behind the Byzantine Court, most plans show two square areas of the Garden Gallery as "Vestibules". In Terry's plan, one of them is identified as the Irish Vestibule, but the other space is blank. Were these areas officially known as Vestibules? Would they be classed as being separate to the main Byzantine Court? What is the name of the other Vestibule? The Samuel Phillips Book makes no distinction between the main court and vestibules.
2) Like most parts of the interior, Terry has covered the palace in great detail, in a way that's never been done before, including the garden side of the South Transept. However, what can you tell us about the small organ seen in a photo on the "Norwood side"?
That's all for now if you'd be so kind as to answer...
Questions for Terry re: "A Walk Through the Nave of the
-
- Posts: 688
- Joined: 25 Jun 2007 01:33
- Location: sarf lunnen
In answer to your question . . . .Terry obviously isn't the kind of fella who likes to be interrogated, but perhaps with some luck he'll be in a good mood to answer any questions about his topic. I never did figure out what it is about a) English People b) Answering Questions & c) Ignorance. I'm English, but then I'm not your stereotypical Brit! It's better when you talk to people on the phone then they are more obliged to answer, but when it comes to writing, people's true colours are revealed. Remember, when you speak to somebody in person, in most cases they would rather much ignore you, but it's more difficult for them in that situation. Psychology is so sad. Anyway, here goes...
1) In or behind the Byzantine Court, most plans show two square areas of the Garden Gallery as "Vestibules". In Terry's plan, one of them is identified as the Irish Vestibule, but the other space is blank. Were these areas officially known as Vestibules? Would they be classed as being separate to the main Byzantine Court? What is the name of the other Vestibule? The Samuel Phillips Book makes no distinction between the main court and vestibules.
2) Like most parts of the interior, Terry has covered the palace in great detail, in a way that's never been done before, including the garden side of the South Transept. However, what can you tell us about the small organ seen in a photo on the "Norwood side"?
That's all for now if you'd be so kind as to answer...
The Italian Vestibule circled on the left, the matching Irish Vestibule on the right. That the Irish Vestibule is much smaller, must be to prevent it encroaching on the North transept, one supposes.
As to your second question, I reach for my copy of Jan Piggott's book, find "organs" in the index, and on page 200 read "A small organ at Sydenham, mentioned as early as 1855, played during the Horticultural Show." The image that raised your question must be part of the 1859 Delamotte images.
I wouldn't presume on my nationality or racial heritage.
I often wonder if you are asking for information, or demanding it.
I have given a lot of time to this forum in the last few weeks, and will answer your "pm's" when I have time.
Thanks for the info, though it doesn't really answer my question. Please compare these plans and see if you think there might be another vestibule to the south of the Irish:The Italian Vestibule circled on the left, the matching Irish Vestibule on the right. That the Irish Vestibule is much smaller, must be to prevent it encroaching on the North transept, one supposes.
The Delamotte photo must have been taken after the great organ of 1857 had been installed, so what was that small one doing in the south transept? Could it have been an organ used for concerts before 1857 and/or the one that ended up in the Concert Room?As to your second question, I reach for my copy of Jan Piggott's book, find "organs" in the index, and on page 200 read "A small organ at Sydenham, mentioned as early as 1855, played during the Horticultural Show." The image that raised your question must be part of the 1859 Delamotte images.
Thanks for the feedback!I often wonder if you are asking for information, or demanding it.
Good man!I have given a lot of time to this forum in the last few weeks, and will answer your "pm's" when I have time.
-
- Posts: 688
- Joined: 25 Jun 2007 01:33
- Location: sarf lunnen
I have to say that I haven't considered the layout in this way.Thanks for the info, though it doesn't really answer my question. Please compare these plans and see if you think there might be another vestibule to the south of the Irish:
The handbooks and the guide were written by seperate writers, and in a rush before the opening. It still takes some detective work to establish exactly what was present, and they were never intended to replace an actual visit. Reading them means having to have to wade through huge chunks of art history, with just the odd, "and on the right" as a clue.
I have made this plan to clarify.
I have shaded all the areas called vestibules, and the initials stand for the courts. I=Italian, R=Renaissance, M=Mediaeval, B=Byzantine. The Nave is above, the park below.
These courts all had portico's, including the Byzantine, some more enclosed than others, and all marked on the map of the whole building by just the column bases at the corners. The boxes marked with a cross in the handbook plans, shows that they had "vaulted" ceilings.
Vaulted ceiling.
The Irish Vestubule and the portico of the Byzantine Court next to it, both had vaulted ceilings, and as you can see in the image I posted of the Irish vestible the east wall was continuous. With two very similar structures right next to each other, it is up to both you and the writers of the guide to decide for yourself if you want to call it a portico or vestibule, I personally would consider it as the same portico that was built for each of the four North-east architectural Courts. As you can see in the Delamotte image below, these distinctions would not have been so apparent to the visitor.
Looking from the Irish Vestibule, through the portico of the Byzantine Court, the gallery, the portico of the Mediaeval Court, the columns of the potico of the Renaissance Court are just visible beyond. To a visitor it would probably just look like "the gallery."
The Plan of the whole building shows no other structures north of the Byzantine Court, reflecting the same layout down the side of the Alhambra Court opposite.
This Nelson print is unusual in showing the southern entrance to the Irish Vestibule, the dark arch on the far left flush with the rest of the facade.
Maybe, it certainly must have served some purpose, and I doubt there would be much point converting a free standing organ into something else later. I seem to remember that Joseph Paxton initially felt that brass bands would be enough musical provision. This attitude was probably motivated by the need to make the sober distinction between the restrained respectability of the Crystal Palace and that provided in the less reputable pleasure gardens of before, all necessary to avoid commercial failure. Which is probably why this small organ was a tentative afterthought. All pure guesswork of course. I work from the same sources availiable to yourself.The Delamotte photo must have been taken after the great organ of 1857 had been installed, so what was that small one doing in the south transept? Could it have been an organ used for concerts before 1857 and/or the one that ended up in the Concert Room?
Looking in "The Musical Life of the Crystal Palace" page 156, it reads "The Concert room Organ which was installed with the completion of the Concert Room in 1868 was also built by Walker." I recommend you get a copy.
Last edited by tulse hill terry on 3 Jun 2012 00:08, edited 1 time in total.
I think we need to find other sources to determine all Vestibules. The area between the Egyptian and Greek Courts I found out to officially be called The Greek Vestibule from a stereocard caption; likewise, the right hand side of the Roman Court was called The Roman Vestibule. I need to study that particular part of the Garden Gallery directly south of the Irish Vestibule to establish whether it might be a continuation of the Irish Vestibule or a "Byzantine Vestibule" or some other style. Up until now I've been concentrating on the Greek and Roman Courts for presentation of another of my virtual tours (to be posted later on tonight).