The Windmill has closed down

[robbieduncan]

We moved to Sydenham specifically to have a family. Not sure what the "young families" thing is about...

[Eagle]

I am in broad agreement with Michael's positive summary of the area , excepting his mention of nightlife. One must assume he is refering to the Tanzanian night club in the former Cobb's Building.

This forum is full of adverse comments about this dubious establishment by its neighbours.

[Annie.]

Funny thing is Eagle when I spoke about that place a while back not many people seemed to be bothered about it, it surprised me at the time because I could hear the cars, and the stragglers, coming out at 5am even though I lived a couple of streets away at the time.
Also the lovely sight I saw one morning about 5.30ish when a woman was laying on the pavement obviously out of her head, with her partner standing nearby, (daylight by the way)

[Tim Lund]

As has been said many times before on this forum, Sydenham does less well compared with some of its neighbours in attracting a vibrant night time economy and a general sense of buzz because
a. it doesn't have much of the sort of housing which attracts young families with lots of money

It's interesting that so many subsequent posters here have made the point that Sydenham is family friendly - with fantastic amenities such as its parks and open spaces (no one mentioned Alexandra and Cator Park and Crystal Palace either) - and that people are moving here to bring up their kids. So I think Robin's argument here is interesting in reflecting an out of date underestanding of the impact of demographics on local economies. Time was when people would time having families for when they had some disposable income, but now, with the baby boomers hanging on to so much of the nation's wealth and income, it will be more a matter of timing families by the running of the biological clock, even if the wished for disposable income isn't there, after paying the mortgage on a family home. So being family friendly is no longer so obviously great for the economy.

So, when

If you look at the demographic of the station in the morning it is changing dramatically. And we know a lot of young families that are moving to the area.

...

With regard it not having a night time economy, and never having one. Tripe. Look at Catford. Nothing. Then the Catford Bridge Tavern opens. Now been sold but turning into a brew pub. The Constitutional Club has just opened and you can bet more things will follow.

I can't agree. If you want somewhere with new bars opening, look in the hipster ghettos at the other end of the London Overground, but less well endowed with parks and family housing. And if you want somewhere where traditional pubs will stay open, look in a retirement ghettos somewhere out in the sticks.

See also "Young, British and Sober"

[Robin Orton]

It's interesting that so many subsequent posters here have made the point that Sydenham is family friendly - with fantastic amenities such as its parks and open spaces (no one mentioned Alexandra and Cator Park and Crystal Palace either) - and that people are moving here to bring up their kids. So I think Robin's argument here is interesting in reflecting an out of date underestanding of the impact of demographics on local economies. Time was when people would time having families for when they had some disposable income, but now, with the baby boomers hanging on to so much of the nation's wealth and income, it will be more a matter of timing families by the running of the biological clock, even if the wished for disposable income isn't there, after paying the mortgage on a family home. So being family friendly is no longer so obviously great for the economy

I accept of course that middle-class families are financially more hard-pressed than they were when my wife and I were bringing up young daughters thirty years ago. But I wasn't really thinking of the economic effects of being 'family friendly.' I expressed myself badly; I was really trying (but failing) to make two separate points about what an area needs if it is to be nice in a posh way (or posh in a nice way.)

The first is that it should have housing which well-off people (i.e. with those enough disposable income to patronize local pubs, restaurants, bars, cafes, theatres, cinemas, concert halls, poncy shops, etc) want to live in - whether single or couples, with or without children.

The second is that it should have nice family housing which can be afforded by couples with children from a range of social and economic backgrounds. This is not because of the economic benefits of such couples' spending power (which I agree may often be quite small), but because it is pleasant to live in an area where there are children (including middle class children) and their parents around. I for one wouldn't want to live in either a 'hipster ghetto' or a 'retirement ghetto'.

How well Sydenham scores against either of these criteria may be a matter of controversy.

[Miserableold-ishgit]

Another pub gone forever. Sad times.



G-Man

For Flips sake:

Railway (Pav) currently closed, Greyhound still awaiting...well...anything, Windmill shut..........
I give it 5 years and Dolphin & Lion will be the only 2 left.

Very sad.

[parker]

Another pub gone forever. Sad times.



G-Man

For Flips sake:

Railway (Pav) currently closed, Greyhound still awaiting...well...anything, Windmill shut..........
I give it 5 years and Dolphin & Lion will be the only 2 left.

Very sad.

And if that does happen we all know why, don't we...

[richpickings]

If you want to keep the Windmill and you have £950k to spare then you can buy the freehold. http://www.eatongreen.com/commercial/de ... htm?id=136

Although they seem a bit confused as to where it is located

Somers Road, visible from the busy thoroughfare of Winston Churchill Avenue (A2030) and close to Holbrook Road, Fratton Road (A2047), Goldsmith Avenue, Victoria Road North (B2151) and Fawcett (B2155).

[JMLF]

Just spotted this re: the windmill...

http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/lewis ... heir_pubs/

Anyone heard any news regarding its future (thought it was all done and dusted from the news on the forum a few months back)..

[Chris Best]

The Sydenham Society supported by Sydenham Councillors obtained a legal opinion on the Asset of Community Value and here is the online minute from the Planning Committee on the 13 March.

With regards to Items 3 – 8 on the Agenda, the Chair proposed that in light of a legal opinion submitted by the objectors to the proposal, that the consideration of items DC/13/84355, DC/13/84356, DC/13/84357, DC/13/84358, DC/13/84359, DC/13/84360 be deferred to allow the Committee to seek legal advice.

Members voted as follows:

FOR: Councillors Till (Chair),Clarke, Foreman, Harris, Ibitson, Maines, Muldoon, Nisbet and Whittle

RESOLVED: That consideration of items 3 – 8, being Town Planning applications DC/13/84355, DC/13/84356, DC/13/84357, DC/13/84358, DC/13/84359, DC/13/84360, be deferred to enable the Committee to seek legal advice regarding the legal opinion received from objectors.

[leenewham]

Er, what does that mean?

[marymck]

Er, what does that mean?

Just to put the record straight ...

The campaign has been continuing.

The item numbers refer to Sainsburys six separate planning applications for the Windmill. And actually, the minutes appear to be incorrect. The vote wasn't quite unanimous, in that Cllr Nisbet abstained.

To cut a long story short ...

In Dec Lewisham council approved our application for ACV status.

Sainsburys six planning applications came before the planning committee in Jan. Sydsoc was granted a deferral (Cllr Nisbet abstained) in order to seek a legal opinion on behalf of the objectors as to whether ACV status was a material planning consideration. Additionally Sainsburys was required to provide a sustainability study and Roads and Highways dept to provide a traffic report.

SydSoc then obtained that legal opinion that ACV status was a "material planning consideration". Consequently on 13th March the Planning Committee (all bar Cllr Nisbet, who again abstained) voted to defer their decision on whether to grant Sainsburys six planning applications in order to seek a legal opinion on the legal opinion.

We now await that legal opinion and a reconvened planning committee hearing.

[leenewham]

Thanks Mary, but I'm still a bit unclear what it actually means (but at least what you wrote was in plain English!)

So does this mean we wait?

If Sainsbury's pull out will it open as a pub again or will it remain empty?

Is it likely that Sainsbury's will pull out?

Is there a good pup operator waiting in the wings waiting to take it over?

[JMLF]

Everyone email antic / late knight brewery / other!!! if there's any chance it can be a communal local asset rather then a supermarket!

[harrym]

The pub was awful. The building is extremely average. There are far more worthwhile local campaigns to be had.

[marymck]

Oh good, the Sydsoc at its misguided best. The pub was awful. The building is extremely average. I had contacted Antic about 12-18 months ago to invite them here but they weren't interested in it. It isn't viable. And they should know. I respect their opinion. I would rather have Sainsburys any day than another boarded up premises. Its frustrating that the self appointed voices of a few on the Sydenham Society are heard much louder than anyone else's in the community and I don't think that's helpful for the area. Not when it leaves our highstreet(s) in derelict limbo.

Oh sigh. Here we go again.

My apologies for posting again, but I feel I must correct some of Harry's mistakes.

I appreciate from Harry's posts on the Talma and the Greyhound that Harry is not a fan of pubs, so there will be no convincing her that our pubs are worth saving. But I will start by saying that whatever anyone thinks of the Windmill, it is the only disabled compliant social gathering space in the area and has a great deal of potential.

For those who don't know Antic pubs, the style of the Windmill, which is a modern multi function space, is completely unsuited to Antic's business style. They are chalk and cheese. Not better, just different. Many loathe the grunge of Antic's Catford Constitutional. I like it. But it's just a boozer. I like modern accessible disabled compliant premises such as the Windmill too.

Lewisham Council has recognized the Windmill's viability. I will ask Antic what evidence they have seen that led them to tell Harry that the Windmill was not viable. Personally I think this is mischief making of a most dangerous sort and I would be very surprised if Antic said any such thing. No one who knew Antic's style would seriously expect them to be interested in a Wetherspoon's style building. But I'm sure Sainsburys and Tesco and the other pub grabbers will be delighted by harry's support, as they relish people saying pubs are not viable, and they'll be thrilled at Harry doing their work for them.

Harry has posted about being pleased about the Talma becoming flats and not wanting to see the Greyhound rebuilt. I on the other hand regret the loss of sydenham's community infrastructure and I'll continue to do my utmost to help save it. The sociability of a Sainsburys queue doesn't quite satisfy me.

As for community voices, SydSoc represents over 1000 people. But there were many non SydSoc objectors too. Many members of the local business and residential community have objected to Sainsburys plans. Many signed petitions, either online or on paper.

Cllr Liam Curran is an elected representative, as are all the members of the planning committee.

The Windmill is boarded up BECAUSE of Sainsburys. The pub was doing very nicely before Sainsburys came along. So it is disingenuous of harry to say better Sainsburys than a boarded up pub. It's not a case of either/or.

I posted on here to correct a misunderstanding about the planning committee minutes.

It was naive of me.

I didn't intend to post again about the Windmill, but I really have to point out the inaccuracies in Harry's post. Whether intentional or not, such misinformation will mislead people.

Thanks harry for reminding me why I stopped posting updates on STF.

[Eagle]

Mary

Many of us support your excellent community spirit and wish you every success.


Ignore the negative people out there.

[harrym]

For the record, I love a good pub.

[Eagle]

Harry

Whilst not agreeing with your negative approach to Mary , I do agree The Talma and The Greyhound had not been lovely pubs for many many years.

[Manwithaview1]

Harry

Whilst not agreeing with your negative approach to Mary , I do agree The Talma and The Greyhound had not been lovely pubs for many many years.

When was the last time you were in the Talma?