Thank you for posting on the forum Duwayne.
I agree with Michael that the owner would be very foolish to appeal. By appealing he would lose any remaining forbearance or goodwill of those long suffering neighbours, who are willing to see the club continue with a new business model that retains John Wright at the helm.
I also think he has very dodgy grounds for a successful appeal. Yes, his business will be affected by more socially acceptable licensing hours. But that is because he has a clearly anti-social business model. Running a club in a residential area that does not open until 11 p.m., when more responsible businesses are closing, is clearly anti-social.
Are we to allow the jerk chicken traders to continue to set up their anti-social stalls on a garage forecourt in the middle of the night, just because they're making a profit and to move them on would affect their business?
Yes, John Wright's business will lose money. But his neighbours work. They are losing sleep, therefore this is affecting their work, therefore this is affecting their ability to earn money and may even be putting their jobs at risk.
And then there is the affect on the health of Mr Wright's neighbours. I don't think anybody would argue that sleep deprivation affects health. It leads to cardiac problems, leaves one more vulnerable to cancer and other immune system disorders and puts a huge strain on family life.
To appeal this decision would be a slap in the face both to Mr Wright's neighbours and Louise and Belinda, who have stuck their necks out to try to rehabilitate him.
Zanzibar Licence Review
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Yes Mary I agree 100% with your words of wisdom. I think he should count his blessings he is being permitted to remain open to 2pm. Far too late in my humble opinion.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
When experiencing further ASB emanating from this club in the run up to when and if there is an appeal, please also don’t forget to log your complaint by calling the police or the local environmental health – noise nuisance team at Lewisham Town Tall. I fear writing to the club – as suggested by Mr Brooks, will get you as far as it has always got us in the past – nowhere!duwaynebrooks wrote:Hi
And thank you for your welcome.
The point I'm making is this.
I can easily say what everyone wants to hear by being populist or I can be honest and take the wrath.
Following the committee meeting the situation is this. Zanzibar will naturally appeal the decision. Until that appeal is heard, they can continue to operate as normal.
The advice is they are more likely to win than lose the appeal.
If they do, it would be in everyone's interest to write letters of complaints to the club (signed for) whenever they experience ASB in prep for the next review hearing.
Hope that helps.
Duwayne
Here is the link to the Lewisham council Noise Nuisance Team for out of hours reporting:
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/e ... noise.aspx
Duwayne Brooks seems to know an awful lot about the intentions of the Zanzibar’s Management in terms of their intention to appeal. It is also disconcerting to be told that the club ‘will carry on as normal’ leading up to any appeal. How charming – and just shows that any concerns for the local people is just lip service. Not someone I would want to be looking after my local interests as a potential Lewisham Mayor.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Please can Duwayne and/or Cllr Chris Best clarify ...duwaynebrooks wrote:Hi
And thank you for your welcome.
The point I'm making is this.
I can easily say what everyone wants to hear by being populist or I can be honest and take the wrath.
Following the committee meeting the situation is this. Zanzibar will naturally appeal the decision. Until that appeal is heard, they can continue to operate as normal.
The advice is they are more likely to win than lose the appeal.
If they do, it would be in everyone's interest to write letters of complaints to the club (signed for) whenever they experience ASB in prep for the next review hearing.
Hope that helps.
Duwayne
How can the club "operate as normal" until the such time as any appeal they decide to make is heard? How long do they have to appeal? Surely, the old licence has been revoked and the new (shorter hours) licence is the one they must now operate to?
And if people write direct to the club, rather than to the police, what assurance do they have that their names and addresses won't be passed on to those who may seek to intimidate them?
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Ward councillor Coun Chris Best said: "Everyone was wanting quiet dispersal and an end to the illegal activity of jerk chicken traders, parking on the pavement, urination, sex in the garden, fights and noise nuisance and the committee accepted the logic that if there was no nightclub with a 5.30am closing time then there would not be this an anti-social behaviour.
"This decision shows that residents who stand up and say no more of this anti-social behaviour can expect the support of the police and Lewisham's local authority."[*]"
so,has the licence been revoked or not? Chris you give the impression in this report that all is well?
"This decision shows that residents who stand up and say no more of this anti-social behaviour can expect the support of the police and Lewisham's local authority."[*]"
so,has the licence been revoked or not? Chris you give the impression in this report that all is well?
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
If the license after 2pm has been revoked then surely they have to abide by that until and if an appeal changes the situation.
The residents have already had many many months of anti social behavior to put up with.
It is totally unacceptable that they have any more distraught early mornings.
Who on earth gave permission in the first place for 4am openings. I suggest they own up and answer to the residents , they are meant to be the servants of the electorate.
This is enough to even wake Tim up from his self imposed slumber in Silverdale.
The residents have already had many many months of anti social behavior to put up with.
It is totally unacceptable that they have any more distraught early mornings.
Who on earth gave permission in the first place for 4am openings. I suggest they own up and answer to the residents , they are meant to be the servants of the electorate.
This is enough to even wake Tim up from his self imposed slumber in Silverdale.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Wednesday did seem a big step, but it will be a great shame and heartache to myself and fellow residents if the decision is overturned on appeal, which seems a very real possibility if complacency creeps in.
It is hugely encouraging that the councillors decided almost unanimously to reduce the hours, even in the face of the apparent legal advice as presented by councillor Brooks.
If we want to succeed, I think we all need to continue to be very active on the matter. We need to continue to document and report all incidents and disturbances to the police and environmental health, and I would urge all affected to persistently lobby our councillors and the licensing committee to motivate them to truly represent us: the greatly affected residents. I do hope that with this encouragement and strength of feeling they will not be cowed by the prospect of fancy talking lawyers and a drawn out legal process should that occur. People tend to only get what they feel they deserve, and if they do not strive for the best, and acquiesce in the belief that nothing can be done, and council will let us down then that is what will likely happen. If Mr Wright and his legal team believe we are mugs and will roll over, then they will be emboldened to appeal, and our council will be unmotivated to stand up for us.
I do agree with the other sentiments above regarding Mr Wright. To be honest, as I said previously my thoughts are that in a perfect world his licence should be completely revoked: he has persistently disregarded recommendations made by police and the council, and flagrantly ignored the concerns of residents who tried to contact him. His business model is one that is geared to attract the lowest common denominator, with no concern for the hugely detrimental effect it is having on the local community. Truly I would be deeply ashamed if my actions to make a living were causing such pain and disorder on others.
It is only with the sense of pragmatism that I will be at present be going along with the current recommendations, on the cautious premise that on the new licence and with the input of Belinda and Louise the business can be changed to one that has some positive effect on Sydenham. As such I agree that if Mr Wright appeals it does demonstrate that he has absolutely no will to change and would rather continue antagonistically against the residents rather than try and operate positively amongst them. He will use up what ever good will or pragmatism that exists in us.
I would point out that several other proactive boroughs have successfully closed down similar establishments http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10926 ... e_licence/
http://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/ ... &Itemid=29
It is good to see that the second case the judge upheld the appeal, and indeed damages of £50k were awarded in legal costs against the club. This second case also dos not sound so terribly different from our experience.
The other options are that we as a group of residents can probably seek is our own legal opinion and course of action. This is probably something for the future, but given the amount of people who are active on this, attended the meeting and the depth of feeling, I do feel this could also be an avenue to pursue to get this ill rectified.
It is hugely encouraging that the councillors decided almost unanimously to reduce the hours, even in the face of the apparent legal advice as presented by councillor Brooks.
If we want to succeed, I think we all need to continue to be very active on the matter. We need to continue to document and report all incidents and disturbances to the police and environmental health, and I would urge all affected to persistently lobby our councillors and the licensing committee to motivate them to truly represent us: the greatly affected residents. I do hope that with this encouragement and strength of feeling they will not be cowed by the prospect of fancy talking lawyers and a drawn out legal process should that occur. People tend to only get what they feel they deserve, and if they do not strive for the best, and acquiesce in the belief that nothing can be done, and council will let us down then that is what will likely happen. If Mr Wright and his legal team believe we are mugs and will roll over, then they will be emboldened to appeal, and our council will be unmotivated to stand up for us.
I do agree with the other sentiments above regarding Mr Wright. To be honest, as I said previously my thoughts are that in a perfect world his licence should be completely revoked: he has persistently disregarded recommendations made by police and the council, and flagrantly ignored the concerns of residents who tried to contact him. His business model is one that is geared to attract the lowest common denominator, with no concern for the hugely detrimental effect it is having on the local community. Truly I would be deeply ashamed if my actions to make a living were causing such pain and disorder on others.
It is only with the sense of pragmatism that I will be at present be going along with the current recommendations, on the cautious premise that on the new licence and with the input of Belinda and Louise the business can be changed to one that has some positive effect on Sydenham. As such I agree that if Mr Wright appeals it does demonstrate that he has absolutely no will to change and would rather continue antagonistically against the residents rather than try and operate positively amongst them. He will use up what ever good will or pragmatism that exists in us.
I would point out that several other proactive boroughs have successfully closed down similar establishments http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/10926 ... e_licence/
http://www.localgovernmentlawyer.co.uk/ ... &Itemid=29
It is good to see that the second case the judge upheld the appeal, and indeed damages of £50k were awarded in legal costs against the club. This second case also dos not sound so terribly different from our experience.
The other options are that we as a group of residents can probably seek is our own legal opinion and course of action. This is probably something for the future, but given the amount of people who are active on this, attended the meeting and the depth of feeling, I do feel this could also be an avenue to pursue to get this ill rectified.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
I think I may have found the answer to my own question and I think Duwayne is wrong. Though it would be good if Chris or Duwayne could confirm this:marymck wrote:Please can Duwayne and/or Cllr Chris Best clarify ...duwaynebrooks wrote:Hi
And thank you for your welcome.
The point I'm making is this.
I can easily say what everyone wants to hear by being populist or I can be honest and take the wrath.
Following the committee meeting the situation is this. Zanzibar will naturally appeal the decision. Until that appeal is heard, they can continue to operate as normal.
The advice is they are more likely to win than lose the appeal.
If they do, it would be in everyone's interest to write letters of complaints to the club (signed for) whenever they experience ASB in prep for the next review hearing.
Hope that helps.
Duwayne
How can the club "operate as normal" until the such time as any appeal they decide to make is heard? How long do they have to appeal? Surely, the old licence has been revoked and the new (shorter hours) licence is the one they must now operate to?
And if people write direct to the club, rather than to the police, what assurance do they have that their names and addresses won't be passed on to those who may seek to intimidate them?
I found that quote in this document ...NB - Courts will not issue orders suspendin
g the effects of any licensing authority
decision, whilst an appeal is waiting
to be heard. The licensing authority's
decision will take effect immediately,
until the outcome of any appeal is known.
https://www.lewisham.gov.uk/SiteCollect ... cision.pdf
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Forgive me if I'm posting material that everyone knows about. I came late to this discussion, as I'm not an immediate neighbour and I had resolved not to post on STF about anything controversial.
But I've just found this document of the minutes from the Licensing hearing in 2010. Reading it sort of felt like deja vu all over again ... except Simon Walsh is listed as a QC. I didn't know he'd ever been a QC.
http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... r%2010.pdf
But I've just found this document of the minutes from the Licensing hearing in 2010. Reading it sort of felt like deja vu all over again ... except Simon Walsh is listed as a QC. I didn't know he'd ever been a QC.
http://councilmeetings.lewisham.gov.uk/ ... r%2010.pdf
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Having read the report Mary it doesn't sound like there has been much of an improvement since, I hope all the residents within the vicinity of the club stand up and be counted.
As I have said on here before, the horrible sight of seeing a female on the floor, so drunk she couldn't stand, at 5.30-5.45 on a Sunday morning.and there's me, idiot that I was going off to do a full days work.
Also I had the pleasure of cooling a couples ardour by calling the police when they were having sex in a car opposite my house.
Nice!
As I have said on here before, the horrible sight of seeing a female on the floor, so drunk she couldn't stand, at 5.30-5.45 on a Sunday morning.and there's me, idiot that I was going off to do a full days work.
Also I had the pleasure of cooling a couples ardour by calling the police when they were having sex in a car opposite my house.
Nice!
-
duwaynebrooks
- Posts: 3
- Joined: 21 Mar 2014 09:46
- Location: United Kingdom
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Dear all,
Just to clarify.....
The legal advice is not my advice. It's what has been given.
I have never been to or inside the Zanzibar club nor do I know or have ever met the owner. My comments on his decision to appeal is what I would expect him to do.
As I have said before, I will always give my honest opinion with explanation not some political statement and I will always give the facts to the best of my ability.
In response to the review decision:
Anyone who was party to the hearing can appeal against the decision. This is done by giving notice to the clerk to the magistrates with 21 days of being notified of the decision.
The review decision cannot take effect until the 21 day period for making an appeal has expired or, if an appeal was lodged, until the appeal is concluded or withdrawn.
I hope this helps.
Duwayne.
Just to clarify.....
The legal advice is not my advice. It's what has been given.
I have never been to or inside the Zanzibar club nor do I know or have ever met the owner. My comments on his decision to appeal is what I would expect him to do.
As I have said before, I will always give my honest opinion with explanation not some political statement and I will always give the facts to the best of my ability.
In response to the review decision:
Anyone who was party to the hearing can appeal against the decision. This is done by giving notice to the clerk to the magistrates with 21 days of being notified of the decision.
The review decision cannot take effect until the 21 day period for making an appeal has expired or, if an appeal was lodged, until the appeal is concluded or withdrawn.
I hope this helps.
Duwayne.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Dear Cllr Brooks
Could you please confirm where that excerpt that you have in italics came from as it appears to be in complete variance to the councils own 'Guidance for interested Parties' as posted by marymck above which seems quite explicit....
Could you please confirm where that excerpt that you have in italics came from as it appears to be in complete variance to the councils own 'Guidance for interested Parties' as posted by marymck above which seems quite explicit....
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
In a recent meeting with Louise Brooks and Belinda Lester (the team drafted in to look at new event promotions at Zanzibar following the successful SEE events last year), much was made of the fact that John wants to "diversify" his business interests. They have some great ideas, and their positivity in the midst of all the chaos is a really good thing.
During the hearing, John effectively stated that as things stand, his business model means that he makes his money in the early hours of the morning, especially between 2am and 5am, when all the other clubs have closed and everyone piles into Zanzibar as it's the only place left open.
I, and a number of the other residents, realised that with a 2am closing time, Zanzibar would just become another club, another option, and would have to up its game in terms of providing a good night out to compete with other clubs.
This is where things get interesting, and where some exciting possiblities open up - to finally, truly, make Zanzibar (probably with a rebrand) something a lot cooler than it is now. Something without the negative impact on the community that we have all come to associate with the current establishment.
However, if John is to press ahead an appeal, then surely that makes something of a mockery of this supposed intention to diversify? Louise and Belinda do not need a 5am licence for the activities they were discussing with me. If he presses on with the appeal, he is really stating an intention just to keep things the way they are now.
Losing the 5am licence will have a huge financial impact - of course it will! But only as long as he sticks with this current business model. In 2010, my company earned 80% of its revenue from building Flash applications. Then the iPad came along, and the following year we earned zero from Flash as people fled from it like rats from a sinking ship. But we were quick, willing to change up, be more future-proof, and haven't looked back.
John needs to stop clinging on to the present, being so scared of the future, and embrace the possiblities. If he does that, and decides not to appeal, he will have my full support in trying to make Zanzibar a really thriving, interesting and kick-ass place to go. If he appeals for his 5am licence to be reinstated, then my position remains the same - I will have no interest in that place other than to see the licence remain where it is for the time being.
I'd also like to join gillyjp in thanking Jim Abbott and his team for their work.
During the hearing, John effectively stated that as things stand, his business model means that he makes his money in the early hours of the morning, especially between 2am and 5am, when all the other clubs have closed and everyone piles into Zanzibar as it's the only place left open.
I, and a number of the other residents, realised that with a 2am closing time, Zanzibar would just become another club, another option, and would have to up its game in terms of providing a good night out to compete with other clubs.
This is where things get interesting, and where some exciting possiblities open up - to finally, truly, make Zanzibar (probably with a rebrand) something a lot cooler than it is now. Something without the negative impact on the community that we have all come to associate with the current establishment.
However, if John is to press ahead an appeal, then surely that makes something of a mockery of this supposed intention to diversify? Louise and Belinda do not need a 5am licence for the activities they were discussing with me. If he presses on with the appeal, he is really stating an intention just to keep things the way they are now.
Losing the 5am licence will have a huge financial impact - of course it will! But only as long as he sticks with this current business model. In 2010, my company earned 80% of its revenue from building Flash applications. Then the iPad came along, and the following year we earned zero from Flash as people fled from it like rats from a sinking ship. But we were quick, willing to change up, be more future-proof, and haven't looked back.
John needs to stop clinging on to the present, being so scared of the future, and embrace the possiblities. If he does that, and decides not to appeal, he will have my full support in trying to make Zanzibar a really thriving, interesting and kick-ass place to go. If he appeals for his 5am licence to be reinstated, then my position remains the same - I will have no interest in that place other than to see the licence remain where it is for the time being.
I'd also like to join gillyjp in thanking Jim Abbott and his team for their work.
-
Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
What's a 'kick-ass' place, please? Do I get my ass kicked or do I get to kick someone else's?raffjones wrote: If he does that, and decides not to appeal, he will have my full support in trying to make Zanzibar a really thriving, interesting and kick-ass place to go.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
That does seem like cruelty to animals, and why are you limiting abuse to asses? Or do you hate mules, horses and donkeys as much? I think kicking animals has no place in sydenham.
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Showing your age Robin!
Youth speak for fantastic venue to visit
Youth speak for fantastic venue to visit
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Well done Annie. Glad you are up with the young people. I have never heard the remark before.
The fact that the current incumbent makes most of his money after 2am is no excuse what so ever in keeping it open after 2am
Quite frankly he should consider himself lucky to be able to stay open until 2am
Did any neighbours notice an improvement this weekend with the new 2am finish in force ????
The fact that the current incumbent makes most of his money after 2am is no excuse what so ever in keeping it open after 2am
Quite frankly he should consider himself lucky to be able to stay open until 2am
Did any neighbours notice an improvement this weekend with the new 2am finish in force ????
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
A club should not be allowed to open until 2am in a residential area.
To be honest I'm surprised it was allowed at all.
Wonder who made such a decision? And were the locals consulted?
To be honest I'm surprised it was allowed at all.
Wonder who made such a decision? And were the locals consulted?
Re: Zanzibar Licence Review
Annie
Is that naive to think the locals would be consulted . Plainly not otherwise it would have been closed down ages ago.
As presumably now operating as 2pm close I wonder if locals noticed any improvement.
Is that naive to think the locals would be consulted . Plainly not otherwise it would have been closed down ages ago.
As presumably now operating as 2pm close I wonder if locals noticed any improvement.