Re-engineering the high street

[Tim Lund]

The news that a planning application is going in for a change of use for the former Jay's opticians as a café, not so far from Cherry & Ice, where I've taken to going for a coffee after my Sydenham Road Saturday shopping, raises the question of the size of premises on Sydenham Road. As Rod Taylor wrote recently, it would be hard to swing a cat in any of the new cafés which are appearing on Sydenham Road, so is there anything which can be done about it? It's fundamentally a question of engineering and economics - what you you need to do to retail premises, such as those on Sydenham Road, with flats above, and a facade which you would want to retain, so that adjoining ground floor retail units could be combined, and what would it cost? It has to be possible, but I suspect it's never been near economically viable for many years. OTOH, Sydenham Road pavements looking so much better, thanks to the recent works, and the increased footfall coming from London Overground, it's possible the economics might change.

I'm going to contact some architects and engineers to see if they have any rough ideas, or know of places elsewhere in London where this has happened. Meanwhile, if anyone one else has thoughts on the matter, please share them here.

It would be nice not to have to worry so much about blocking the gangway with my shopping when I go for my Saturday coffee in the future

[Eagle]

Yes Tim
You can never have too many coffee shops.

Hopefully Tanzania night club will become a sedate coffee shop soon, this will put it back to the days of good olde Walter.

[hairybuddha]

You'll need to tread very carefully Tim. I'm told that changes to buildings to allow for new commercial premises can never be undone...... ever.

But I think you're right that the economic case must be very weak for small businesses to make major structural changes to premises. I don't think a smattering of extra footfall will change that. Perhaps when some of the bigger chains begin to be attracted? But maybe those bigger chains have already heard about the "nest of vipers"?

No discussion on re-engineering the High Street would be complete without some examples of where high streets have been re-engineered. This article shows what can be (and has been) achieved.

http://blog.archpaper.com/wordpress/archives/67137

[Bunty]

I like the choice of the small individual coffee shops. Would hate to see a larger 'chain' takeover our high street.

[parker]

Would hate to see a larger 'chain' takeover our high street.

Why? They're in every other successful high street in the UK... They add quality to an area, you know, a certain standard of quality that can be expected. Something Sydenham lacks; quality.

Perhaps when some of the bigger chains begin to be attracted? But maybe those bigger chains have already heard about the "nest of vipers"

What do you mean HB?

[Toots]

If On The Hoof can get onto the High Street then we might see some real change. They serve coffee as good as any Flat White, Foxcroft and Ginger or Speakeasy Coffee shop that Soho has to offer. Easily the best within a few miles - and on the basis I throw money I can't afford on coffee on an annual basis I feel I have a reasonably educated coffee opinion. That's the standard we should be aiming for in every retailer that opens on the High Street. They're the only coffee shop in the area that doesn't burn their coffee. If a Costa, Starbucks or any of the other 'coffee' chains that serve bitter c*ap appear on the scene then we should be really worried about the areas ability to regenerate. We should be wanting independents all the way - in every area. There are some great ones already here, but some need guidance - look at 'Well-being'. Their window suggests they sell drugs. The interior tells a wonderfully different story of homemade foods, organic produce etc - lots of it local. That stuff should be in the window - and we should all be supporting these sort of retailers. Stick the chicken shops somewhere else. Close the betting shops. Stop dilly dallying around with pubs like the Pavilion. Close it. It attracts all day drinkers - piss heads as they might otherwise be known. Get behind the Sunday market. These are the things that will change this area. There is the economic hunger for something really special to happen to the High Street and I hope with time it will. But we are all responsible for its long term success.

[parker]

I think you are getting quality confused with standardization, Parker. As a coffee drinker I wouldn't touch the stuff that most chains pass off as proper coffee, notwithstanding the awful corporate branding they pass off as interior design.

But all this isn't JUST about coffee though is it. Quality is about the whole concept of a coffee shop, or any shop/high street for that matter. Kente could sell the world's best coffee but most people would be put off by the way it looks.

Large chains like Caffe Nero and even McDonald's have 5 star hygiene ratings, I don't know whether I'd look directly into the windows of Kente and Cherry & Ice and automatically think 5 star. It's about how businesses look that can make a difference to the success of shops and the perception of a high street... I'm sure Lee Newham would vouch for this and is what he's been saying for years and years and years.

On The Hoof should get this right, the small one at Sydenham Station looks great with the space they have... If they don't, it's probably why they won't compete with a beautifully professional, clean looking Caffe Nero et al that could open down the line.

[Tim Lund]

So, there's no accounting for taste, but might there be for creating space to swing a cat?

[Sid Nam]

It's important to get the right balance and a couple of chains on the High Street could sit well amongst the existing range of independents, pop ups, convenience and fast food stores.

However I much prefer the style and taste of the independent coffee shops to the anodyne, bitterness served up at Costa, Nero and co. Too many chains, just like too many fast food outlets or betting shops, would stifle the regeneration seen so far on the High-street, as they would inevitably push up rents and rates forcing the independent traders to look elsewhere.

As for cat swinging maybe this fits the bill http://ladydinahs.com

[Tim Lund]

Or this?

[Tim Lund]

It's important to get the right balance and a couple of chains on the High Street could sit well amongst the existing range of independents, pop ups, convenience and fast food stores.

However I much prefer the style and taste of the independent coffee shops to the anodyne, bitterness served up at Costa, Nero and co. Too many chains, just like too many fast food outlets or betting shops, would stifle the regeneration seen so far on the High-street, as they would inevitably push up rents and rates forcing the independent traders to look elsewhere.

I agree that a couple of chains would do no harm, and I also like our independents, not necessarily for the quality of the coffee, but just because it's nice to know the person serving you. It's something independents can compete on, and also on being more innovative and flexible - like Sugahill using their wall to exhibit local artists.

I don't want to minimise these sorts of considerations, and if I minded topics going off thread I wouldn't have posted the image from Aristocats, but I'm still hoping for more enlightenment on how interior space can be re-engineered to create somewhere that informal meetings can just happen, which I think we need for greater community vibrancy. A bit like Canvas & Cream in Forest Hill. And this does need some calcuations, of load bearing capacity of interior walls, and returns to investors.

[Tim Lund]

No discussion on re-engineering the High Street would be complete without some examples of where high streets have been re-engineered. This article shows what can be (and has been) achieved.

http://blog.archpaper.com/wordpress/archives/67137

Belated thanks for this, but that's just about re-engineering the outside sapce. Maybe re-engineering interior space is just too expensive, but I'd like to know how expensive it is

[hairybuddha]

What do you mean HB?

Sydenham is notorious for community special interest groups creating an environment that is unwelcoming of investment.

It's important to get the right balance and a couple of chains on the High Street could sit well amongst the existing range of independents, pop ups, convenience and fast food stores.

Completely agree.

If On The Hoof can get onto the High Street then we might see some real change. They serve coffee as good as any Flat White, Foxcroft and Ginger or Speakeasy Coffee shop that Soho has to offer. Easily the best within a few miles - and on the basis I throw money I can't afford on coffee on an annual basis I feel I have a reasonably educated coffee opinion. That's the standard we should be aiming for in every retailer that opens on the High Street.

It's completely unrealistic to expect Sydenham to jump from run down and depressing to suddenly having every unit opening up to the kind of standard that you might expect in Soho or Shoreditch. There needs to be space for units that cater to those who still want betting shops and chicken shops and there needs to be space for the odd venture that misses the mark and fails.

[parker]

I think it is the big names that will make the high street more popular... A lot of people like the coffee from these big chains which is why they are very very successful organisations. Maybe even more than those on this forum like their independent coffee. At the moment the high street doesn't have these, this becomes a problem when the independents DON'T 'look the part', and that's what's happening in the high street.

If rents go up the popularity of a chain store would probably increase the footfall on the street anyway, it's a catch 22.

[leenewham]

But all this isn't JUST about coffee though is it. Quality is about the whole concept of a coffee shop, or any shop/high street for that matter. Kente could sell the world's best coffee but most people would be put off by the way it looks.

Large chains like Caffe Nero and even McDonald's have 5 star hygiene ratings, I don't know whether I'd look directly into the windows of Kente and Cherry & Ice and automatically think 5 star. It's about how businesses look that can make a difference to the success of shops and the perception of a high street... I'm sure Lee Newham would vouch for this and is what he's been saying for years and years and years.

You will find a lot of the smaller establishments also have 5star hygiene ratings. Not all Cafe Nero, Starbucks etc have high them. Some are in fact quite low.

But perception is important. People buy things they want more than things they need. If you want something, it's an emotive decision. Therefore how a business looks is important. Unfortunately, the vast majority of small shops just don't get this. But I'd rather get a drink and cake from Aga's, Sugahill, Blue Mountain, The Montage, St Davids, The Teapot etc anyway (and they all look good). Kente is nice too and I like Charles, and this too could look fantastic (but at present it needs a little refresh, but we did a What If on this years ago now with a great response).

I'd rather get something from these guys than Cafe Nero/Starbucks etc (I've worked on branding with Starbucks and I'm not a fan of them) as they make high street generic and dull.

We already have LOT of chains in the high street:

Woodfalls Opticians
Superdrug
Morleys Chicken
Natwest
Lloyds
The Co-operative
Tesco
Sainsbury's is coming
Boots
The Co-operaive Funeralcare
Snappy Snaps
Ladbrokes (x2)
Costcutter
Post Office
William Hill
Subway
LA Fitness

That's not including Estate Agents and Charity shops and I'm sure I've missed some.

What the point SHOULD be is about attracting the RIGHT sort of businesses to the high street. That doesn't mean just chains and brands, which are mixed. Getting individual shops run by passionate people who love what they do can make a high street. You get that more with independent businesses.

What is so frustrating, is that for the last 20 years we have been designing for these large brands like Coca Cola, all the supermarkets, M&S etc and we wanted to pass on what we have learnt to local shops. We offered to design for local shops for free, but aside from Trattoria, Billings and On the Hoof, no-one has really taken it up. Shops see design as a cost, not an investment (even when the design is free!). It would have been nice to have some support for what we were trying to do, but alas in Sydenham at least it's been a waste of our time to be honest. Sydenham won't change unless it is willing to do so. Some traders get it, like Ela, Raph, Amo, unfortunately, nice as many of them are, many don't. We should praise those that make our high street look and feel better like Sugahill etc. This sort of behaviour should be encouraged.

It would also be good if the Sydenham Society REALLY got behind and supported people who were trying to make the area better and encouraged and praised innovation from local shops.

[leenewham]

Going back to the OP, its' expensive enough fitting out a single shop. Breaking through walls into other shops has to go through planning, something planning isn't keen on (they opposed a shop doing this in Lewisham way for over a evade before they finally gave in).

I doubt if landlords are keen on it either.

Rates and rent increase.

Getting change of use can be a pain, especially for two units in a row.

Most shops in Sydenham don't want to pay for new signage. Some often use what's already there, even when new staff take over.

Most shops don't want to go through planning. Its too slow, too complicated, too, expensive, no-one understands it and hardly anyone bothers.

I know some traders in Sydenham that have talked about taking over units next door but for the reasons above they haven't gone for it.

The larger units in Sydenham are empty. No-one bought the old blind factory. No-one has taken up the lease in the Regency Club, which is vast. The old sorting office is still unused.

The trend in non-destination high streets is for subletting space in shops. Sydenham is a non-destination high street. People don't really come here form other areas. That's why you find forecourts of hairdressers selling vegetables, or the back room of other hairdressers doing 'graphix' and 'signage'. It's extra income in unused space. Many shops are struggling. Bigger premises means bigger overheads, more staff etc. I don't think Sydenham is right for this.

Not yet anyway.

However, re-engineering our outside spaces is a great idea. We had a missed opportunity to do this with our high street scheme, which is, frankly, dull, unimaginative and typical short sighted Lewisham. We need to somehow make the pocket parks work and be more than just paving. That means they need to be more than a market once a month on one of the squares.

Ideas on a postcard (although Lewisham will come up with lots of reasons why you can't do it so it won't happen!).

[hairybuddha]

Ideas on a postcard

Part pedestrianisation of the whole High St and/or temporary pedestrianisation at least once a month to allow the market to expand and the coffee shops etc to spill out into the road.

[leenewham]

Well, HB, Harringay Green Lanes traders managed to close a busier road for a festival in North London, so it's possible.
NY did it in Times Square.

It just takes will and some open minds.

One of Sydenham's biggest issues is that we don't have many empty properties, which enable change. WE had a prime empty side next to a pocket park that could have made great restaurant. Imagine if we had offered anyone willing to open a business that would make use of the pocket square rent free for 6 months and free use of the square if they made it look good? If we had an investment pack with info on footfall, demographics, rates, testimonials etc to target that sort of business to certain sites, perhaps we may have ended up with a great restaurant or cafe on that site rather than a funeral parlour.

Some councils are targeting corner sites of this very reason as they are very visible and can help change how a high street looks and feels (and how it is perceived).

It takes ideas, out of the box thinking and WILL from elected representatives, civid groups, council officers and different council departments that all have their own agendas and don't often like working together.

[Tim Lund]

Breaking through walls into other shops has to go through planning, something planning isn't keen on (they opposed a shop doing this in Lewisham way for over a evade [decade?] before they finally gave in).

Can you pm or email me more details, e.g. the case reference on the Lewisham Planning site?

I doubt if landlords are keen on it either.

Rates and rent increase.

I'd have thought landlords were quite keen on rent increases ...

Getting change of use can be a pain, especially for two units in a row.
...

Most shops don't want to go through planning. Its too slow, too complicated, too, expensive, no-one understands it and hardly anyone bothers.

I know some traders in Sydenham that have talked about taking over units next door but for the reasons above they haven't gone for it.

Again, details by pm if possible ...

The larger units in Sydenham are empty. No-one bought the old blind factory.

I thought the story on this was that someone had illegally built a residential unit on a neighbouring property, which encroached on this and what needed to be done about this had to be settled first. Is that what held up any sale? I admit it seems a fairly weak reason; if there was a will, there should have been a way to resolve such a problem.

No-one has taken up the lease in the Regency Club, which is vast. The old sorting office is still unused.

I know who owns the old sorting office - and it doesn't encourage me in thinking anything much is going to happen soon. Does anyone know who owns the Recency Club, and so save me the £3 it takes to find out from the Land Registry? I think someone posted a while back with a link to where it was being advertised for sale, with details of the square footage on the three different floors. When I last went past, the windows were looking fairly shabby.

If only these landlords, including Purelake and the guy who owns the retail space behind the Greyhound, could get together and develop an investment plan for the area.

I don't think Sydenham is right for this.

Not yet anyway.

Let's dream, albeit without making dreams our master.

[leenewham]

Some posters here know who owns the recency club because they have looked over it.

I know who owns the old sorting office too. I agree with you.

I really can't go through all the other points Tim, my information comes from talking with shop owners, or landlords or previous owners. The old blind factory has issues with being redeveloped, but it's a shame what was there originally, a massive space, wasn't kept and used for something like an indoor market, theatre etc rather than more flats and retail in the same style we already have. It would have added interesting punctuation into the high street amongst the shops. The plans for it are sadly, dull. Look at the tricycle theatre in Kilburn. Kilburn was a horrible place when i lived in N London in the 90's. Vision! We don't really have this here. I wish we did, but we don't.

I think you have mixed some of my other points up Tim!

To make a high street flourish, you need to set up certain conditions, just like a gardener. If you want certain plants to grow, you set the soil to enable those plants to get established. High rents, lack of vision, lack of a real plan for what the high street should be added with average footfall and lack of free units = sub letting, struggling businesses etc.