German Embassy in Sydenham?

[Steve Grindlay]

To answer your last question first, Chris, Lambourne House School no longer exists. It was founded in Lambourne House, 84 Honor Oak Road, in about 1901 and was described as “a German High School”. Sometime after WW1 the school moved round the corner to Manor Mount where it continued until the outbreak of WW2. Lambourne House, demolished during the 1950s, was on the corner of London Road and Honor Oak Road; the site is now occupied by a petrol station and Tesco Express. It is on the right of this picture:
The diary sounds fascinating, particularly the reference to “Geheimrat Johannes, the German consul General”. As I understand it “Geheimrat” is a title, rather like our “Rt. Hon.” and “Johannes” is his first name. Is there ANY clue as to his surname, or where he lived? I still don’t believe there was a German embassy or consulate in this area but, given the number of influential Germans who lived here it is certainly possible that they included a senior German diplomat.

Could you tell me when Ludwig and Margarette moved to 17 Bishopsthorpe Road? My records show them at 65 Sunderland Road (1892-1895), 18 Church Road (1896-1902) and 25 Dacres Road (1902-1925). I’m not sure what happened after that.

Incidentally, the Hammers were another influential German family who lived in Honor Oak Road for 40 years or more.

Edited to correct a date

[Chris Perrett]

Hello Steve, Thankyou for the information and photo. The address of Ludwig Holthusen came from The Times, Wednesday, Mar 23, 1927; pg. 1; Issue 44537; col A
Deaths
Holthusen on March 21 1927 in a nursing home, Margarethe Holthusen, the dearly beloved wife of Ludwig Holthusen 17, Bishopsthorpe –road, Sydenham

I have had another look at the diary but at the moment cannot see anything more . The reason I presummed Johannes was a surname is that the diary says "Irmgard Johannes caused a bit of a stir when she first arrived" The only other piece mentions "In the summer of 1914 we had an invitation from Johannes to visit them in Berlin, whither the Geheimrat and his family had been sent some months previously"
I am still typing up the diary and if I come across any other relevant information I will let you know.

Other names living in the area that are mentioned are a Baron Knoop,the Lorenzs and Delp’s and "Miss Kosmark a very formidable and remarkable lady – as headmistress"

My grandfather Richichard Frederick (Fritz) Hammer who married Hilde came back from the war with only one arm. He was a very keen Tennis player and still kept his Tennis up playing in various matches and tournements

[Steve Grindlay]

That’s brilliant, Chris. I do think it’s helped crack the German Ambassador story. Hermann Johannes lived at 73 Crystal Palace Park Road from about 1908-1912. From what you say he was back in Germany by 1914. The 1911 census confirms that he was the “German consul general”. Kelly’s Handbook (1912) also shows him as the German consul general, based at Bedford Place, Russell Square. Clearly this was his office, and he lived with his family in Sydenham.

Baron von Koop, Ernest Lorenz and Carl (Charles) Delp were leading members of the German community in the area and, no doubt like members of your family, were closely connected with the German Church in Dacres Road.

Can you throw some light on Fritz Hammer’s father’s first names? I have him variously as “Carl Richard”, “Charles Richard”, “Richard Carl” and sometimes just “Richard”. These names refer to the head of the household at 117 Honor Oak Park between 1898 and 1937. Do they refer to one person (your great grandfather), or to several people?

[Chris Perrett]

Steve , I'm glad I have been some help. Thank you for forenames you supplied and the address where Hermann lived, it is great putting real names to those mentioned in the diary

From Richard Fritz Hammer’s Marriage certificate dated 24/01/1916 his father is named as Charles Richard Hammer a metal merchant living at 117 Honor Oak Park, Forest Hill.
He seems to be referred to as Richard quite a lot, He was married to a Marie Fink.
From family records I have (not verified as yet) his father was a Fred hammer and married an Emelia Schwarte.
R.C.Hammer’s company was called Schwarte and Hammer, following from the London gazette 22nd March 1912

NOTICE is hereby given, that the Partnership
Iheretofore subsisting between Eugene Schwarte
and Charles Richard Hammer, carrying on business
as Merchants I and Agents, at 3, East India-avenue,
in the city of London, under the style or firm of
SCHWARTE I AND HAMMER, has been dissolved
by mutual consent as and from the thirty-first day
of December, i 1911.—Dated the 19th day of March,
1912.

Please let me know if there is any other information I can help you with.

Chris

[lesleyc]

I just came across this fascinating thread. My question is what brought the Germans to this area. I first read about it in a book called Penge, by Doris Edith Pullen (revised ed 1990), in which she notes the numbers of Germans who settled in the Crystal Palace area from the late nineteenth century and takes the story through to German Resistance to Hitler centred on the Bonhoeffer Church. I have some names and streets from what's already been discussed. Can anyone go back to an earlier time and say what the attraction of the area was? Presumably the Palace itself had a certain cachet. German male residents must have been interned during WW1 if they weren't naturalized Brits. Second question, can we also take this forward to the 1930s and the war years? I'll be looking to see what I can turn up in the archives.

[sharland]

Have been researching ancestors of my husband and, quite by accident, logged on to Sydenham Town Forum. My husband's grandfather, Joseph Friedrich SCHLUND born in Frankfurt am Main in about 1850 appears in the 1871 cansus (woollen merchant) in a boarding house in London and in 1901 appears living at 1 Sydenham Avenue. now a naturalised British subject, with a wife (Johanna nee Cayzer), three small children, the eldest aged 5 being my father in law.

JFS died in about 1928 but his daughter, Helen, and his second wife Emma (first wife died and Emma was the governess) continued to live at 1 Sydenham Avenue until the 1960s. I think the original house was demolished shortly after and there are now quite a few houses? flats? there.

In one of the earlier topics it names a Theodor Schlund living in Sydenham Hill. He was related to and in the woollen business with JFS. If anyone has any further information would be very grateful.

[selady]

Email Cllr_Sven.Griesenbeck@lewisham.gov.uk he is from the Bonhoeffer Church in Forest Hill and also a Lewisham Councillor. He told me recently that the ambassador actually lived in Forest Hill /HoP and will tell you where if you email him. He knows quite a lot about the history of the church and the German embassy staff at the time.

Good luck and please post when you have a reply.

[Lois]

And the building on Westwood Hill, no. 108, called Sunnydene, was built by William Sutton, described as a "millionaire entrepreneur and a housing philanthropist". His widow continued living there after his death, and by the 1930s the house had been divided into flats.

Hi Steve, and everyone else, I live in a flat in the annexe of 108 Westwood Hill. The house was built for William Sutton by J. F. Bentley, the architect of Westminster Cathedral. I had doubts about Suttons widow living on here as Sutton was living in Hove when he died, although he is buried in West Norwood Cemetery. But sure enough she is still shown living here in the 1911 census. Do you have any idea if she lived here till her death?

I want to get to the bottom of the mystery about the eagle on the roof. I can't imagine that Sutton had it put up there. A neighbour of mine told me the name of the German Official that lived here but I never noted it down and unfortunately my neighbour died and his partner has now moved away. If we had a name there would be more to go on with enquiries with the German Embassy.

I have found out who at the land registry I need to write to in a bid to find out the owners since Suttons wife to the present owner and am going to do that today. But their records 'might' go back to the 1920's so I am only hoping that they will be able to help.

Do you have any evidence of the house being converted into flats by the 1930's Steve?

p.s. I sent you a request on FaceBook Steve.

[tbc]

FROM 1967 TO 1978 I LIVED & GREW UP IN FLAT 5, 108 WESTWOOD HILL WHICH WAS THE TOP PART OF THE ANNEX, THEN IT HAD A LONG HALLWAY,4 BEDROOMS,DINING ROOM,LOUNGE,KITCHEN,BATHROOM/TOILET & 2ND TOILET.
AT THAT TIME WE WERE TOLD AND BELIEVED IT WAS AN OLD GERMAN EMBASSY.
IN MOST OF THE ROOMS ON THE WALLS WERE OLD PUSH BUTTON BELLS {NOT WORKING THEN}
FOR CALLING SERVANTS.
THE BOTTOM FLAT OF THE ANNEX HAD THE SAME.

[Lois]

Wow tbc!
I see that you only made two posts and will probably not see this but I have so often dreamed that we had the whole floor!

My flat is almost twice the size of the other flat but they are both now 1 bedroom.

[Lois]

I am now satisfied that this building has never had anything at all to do with the German Embassy.

Just still intrigued about the eagle.
The way I see it the eagle must have either been original and either Sutton or Bentleys idea, or it may have been added by Theodor Schneider.

It does seem that it was Schneider who converted the place into flats and he was certainly a fairly wealthy man.

I would also love to have any older pictures of the building but after years of searching cannot find anything online.

I have emailed Suttons housing trust and if they give me permission I can post images from a book all about Sutton that gives some information on Sunnydene.