Crystal Palace Park Project: drop-in sessions this Saturday

[Tim Lund]

Well, if you don't actually want regeneration, why didn't you just say so, and not waste time with a petition asking for more community consultation?

[Sid Nam]

I would urge anyone attending Saturday's sales session to peruse the traffic and transport angle and not to accept the " you need to out that question to TFL" response.

Arup are the agents of the investors behind this project, the Chinese government and Mr Ni. The ZRG need to release more details and investment. It is not feasible to drop the equivalent of a new city on top of a heritage park serving a densely populated community (many residents live in over crowded conditions with no amenity space) without offering investment beyond the framework of the building they seek to profit from.

[Sid Nam]

Tim where have I said I do not welcome regeneration?

It is strange to conclude that those who do not support this proposal are anti regeneration, xenophobic, flakey, etc.

[Sid Nam]

why didn't you just say so, and not waste time with a petition asking for more community consultation?

I have signed the petition but am not behind it, in my view it does not go far enough.
There are 1,331 signatures http://tinyurl.com/q7f6svr

[michael]

To respond to Michael's point that we don't experience many problems from traffic when there's an event on at the stadium. That is not my experience but as those events happen only a few times a year they don't have any real impact but the ZRG complex will be attracting stadium size crowds on much more frequent and regular basis. Daily? Twice daily? Nightly? Weekly? Until the details of the size and number of ZRG arenas and exhibition centres are released visitor numbers cannot be gauged.

I understand your concern about regular traffic problems but I'm really interested to understand the disruption caused at present when there is a major event at present, even if they are few and far between. Using such events as the basis for further modelling is important to understand what the disruption will be.

When 23,000 people came to the Horniman Park, there was gridlock around half of Forest Hill and no places to park. You can see the fuss that was caused from this single event at http://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.ph ... 5#pid19965
But I don't remember even occasional threads on STF about traffic chaos during the any of the athletics events or concerts that currently take place in Crystal Palace. More likely are complaints about the noise from such events rather than the traffic disruption. So in the interests of properly understanding the traffic impact I would ask if there could be some anecdotal examples of the disruption caused during such recent events that impacted people in Sydenham, Penge, Forest Hill, or Dulwich. I'm sure Arup will be doing their own analysis, but we need a good understanding of how this translates into actual disruption in local road arteries.

I also think it would be reasonable to assume that the Palace would not open until most of the Thameslink related engineering work and LOROL platform extensions are completed, so I would not anticipate significant weekend closures, in fact with a major destination on the line we might be better served as TfL would be less likely to cause massive disruption to international conferences, attracting lots of visitors without access to cars.

[Tim Lund]

why didn't you just say so, and not waste time with a petition asking for more community consultation?

I have signed the petition but am not behind it, in my view it does not go far enough.
There are 1,331 signatures http://tinyurl.com/q7f6svr

The petition is on the web site change.org, but maybe you should be setting up a rival petition site to be called stasis.org, if you can get hold of the domain name

[Tim Lund]

Tim where have I said I do not welcome regeneration?

Here

The mayor has been fiddling with the London plan http://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/FALP.pdf he has amended it to put Crystal Palace on the major regeneration zone map. It now reads "Wembley, parts of Greenwich, Richmond/ Kingston, Stratford, Royal Docks, the Lower Lee Valley and the Upper Lee Valley, Hillingdon and the Wandle Valley, Crystal Palace"

[Tim Lund]

It is strange to conclude that those who do not support this proposal are anti regeneration, xenophobic, flakey, etc.

It's when I see irrelevant references to the nationality of developer that I detect xenophobia, and see ludicrous alternative projections



that things feel flakey.

The vast majority of those signing this petition will do so because they want the best possible consultation over the future of Crystal Palace, but its effect will be to lock in the stasis of the last few decades, during which consultations have been dominated by the "select few, who either have an abundance of time to meet or a vested interest"

Anyone who really wants the best possible consultation should pick up the suggestion I made earlier, about holding Arups to their elsewhere stated commitment to publishing the data on which they are modeling traffic flows, and then find other experts to see if they can enhance their reputations by finding flaws in it. Such David & Goliath contests do sometimes have the satisfying outcome of seeing the mighty humbled - thinking here of

THE REINHART AND ROGOFF CONTROVERSY

[Tim Lund]

I would urge anyone attending Saturday's sales session to peruse the traffic and transport angle and not to accept the " you need to out that question to TFL" response.

Would that be because of the intellectual interest in traffic and transport modelling, or because it will sound more reasonable than just saying build absolutely nothing anywhere near anything? Would it not be more honest just to say what you think?

[michael]

Tim,
Can you stop spamming this thread?
It loses any flow if we get four postings in a row from you (including quoting and repeating yourself). I asked some sensible questions about traffic disruption to all contributors to the forum, now I suspect we will get no responses as nobody will read that far back.

[Tim Lund]

Earlier Michael asked some sensible questions about traffic disruption, which it would be shame to lose track of:

To respond to Michael's point that we don't experience many problems from traffic when there's an event on at the stadium. That is not my experience but as those events happen only a few times a year they don't have any real impact but the ZRG complex will be attracting stadium size crowds on much more frequent and regular basis. Daily? Twice daily? Nightly? Weekly? Until the details of the size and number of ZRG arenas and exhibition centres are released visitor numbers cannot be gauged.

I understand your concern about regular traffic problems but I'm really interested to understand the disruption caused at present when there is a major event at present, even if they are few and far between. Using such events as the basis for further modelling is important to understand what the disruption will be.

When 23,000 people came to the Horniman Park, there was gridlock around half of Forest Hill and no places to park. You can see the fuss that was caused from this single event at http://www.se23.com/forum/showthread.ph ... 5#pid19965
But I don't remember even occasional threads on STF about traffic chaos during the any of the athletics events or concerts that currently take place in Crystal Palace. More likely are complaints about the noise from such events rather than the traffic disruption. So in the interests of properly understanding the traffic impact I would ask if there could be some anecdotal examples of the disruption caused during such recent events that impacted people in Sydenham, Penge, Forest Hill, or Dulwich. I'm sure Arup will be doing their own analysis, but we need a good understanding of how this translates into actual disruption in local road arteries.

I also think it would be reasonable to assume that the Palace would not open until most of the Thameslink related engineering work and LOROL platform extensions are completed, so I would not anticipate significant weekend closures, in fact with a major destination on the line we might be better served as TfL would be less likely to cause massive disruption to international conferences, attracting lots of visitors without access to cars.

[Nigel]

Michael I agree
The constant bombardment and obfuscation is text book Tim .
People are trying to get basic answers to basic questions - his nonsense about " what does nationality have to do with it ? " Really??? Etc is time wasting .

I think this kind of lower level intellectual showboating should have its own forum "Nice but Tim Forum "?

Back to the point - traffic / transport was the killer question during the last attempt to build something huge in the park and I don't see any answer to it this time
A very good afternoon
Nigel

[michael]

Back to the point - traffic / transport was the killer question during the last attempt to build something huge in the park and I don't see any answer to it this time

I'm still trying to work out if it really is the killer question.
There already is something huge in the park - not the dinosaurs, the stadium and concert venue. I've been trawling local forums to find examples of gridlock, most are caused by road works. I've yet to find an example of stadium related gridlock in recent history, but I'm happy to be proved wrong. The closest I've found was a warning to CP fans traveling to Selhurst Park when there was the major road closure in South Norwood.

Perhaps the only way to get an answer is to ask if local people are UNAWARE when there is a major event at the stadium as it has no impact on them. Certainly I find that Crystal Palace has no impact on the traffic around Horniman, which is just 6 minutes from the transmitter. Anybody else unaffected by traffic chaos on event days?

[admin]

Our quiet wide open street gets rammed during major events. and we are over a mile away. Doesn't matter that much with the present frequency. An occasional nuisance, not a way of life.

Personally I would be agitating for CPZ if it was.

Admin

[Sid Nam]

That's my experience Admin. The athletics Grand Prix traffic was backed down Westwood Hill and Crystal Palace Park Road, I am between the two. Also parking on residential roads was pretty bad. I think quite few drivers opted for local roads to save been caught in the jams up and around the Parade.

I am sure CPZs will be on the agenda, only thing is they do not guarantee space on your road and result in displacement parking. But the scale of this proposal will make them a necessity.

The irregular events at the NSC do cause problems and that's with the current car parking and park access roads. If they are removed this will impact upon the future functioning of park events. I still don't see how the huge numbers that this complex needs to attract will do anything else than detract from the quality of life of the surrounding communities.

Look at the Met Office air quality map to see how high the levels are. Places where the volume of traffic is high and slow moving have warnings for those with health issues, the very young and the elderly, advising them to stay in doors. We are lucky to have such a large open green space, it looks like an oasis on the Met map and it saddens me that people are so keen to see it built on. One other thing I noticed on the map was that Crystal Palace Park is now labelled The Site of the old Crystal Palace.

It's not just visitor traffic, the delivery vehicles alone will be significant, frequent and plentiful. Does anyone have an idea how much traffic an international expo attracts? Can't see many of the participants arriving with their displays on public transport, can you?

I still don't see Sydenham High Street enjoying the benefits some claim the Triangle will. It will be a feeder route to the ZRG complex and will loose out on trade if locals are lured up the hill to spend more time and money in and around the ZRG Palace.

[Sid Nam]

Here's the image of the ZRG vision, it retains the stadium but looses the roads and car parks currently needed for events within the NSC and park.



The terraces and bowl areas are for the benefit of the ZRG development so users can look out on to unspoilt views. This is not quite the £100m gift to the people we are being led to believe.

I also wonder how accessible will it be to the public if the building is to contain precious gems, valuable art collections and high end retail, there is bound to be a 24/7 security presence.

[Tim Lund]

24/7 security is generally appreciated by shoppers

[simon]

I've noticed the picture used cuts off a large part of the park, where currently there is a large flat grassed area. Perhaps they plan to turn that into a dirty great park, appeasing Sid and local residents.

[michael]

The images at the meeting today were much more impressive. That image was enlarged to the size of a wall with the whole park shown, as well as lots of local landmarks.

I don't think we learnt much new from today's meeting. Possibly a little more about Mr Ni's motivation but not a lot about the content of the palace or the developer's projections for traffic.

Generally comments from the floor appeared concerned but not completely opposed to the development, perhaps they were just being kind.

[marymck]

The images at the meeting today were much more impressive. That image was enlarged to the size of a wall with the whole park shown, as well as lots of local landmarks.

I don't think we learnt much new from today's meeting. Possibly a little more about Mr Ni's motivation but not a lot about the content of the palace or the developer's projections for traffic.

Generally comments from the floor appeared concerned but not completely opposed to the development, perhaps they were just being kind.

I couldn't make it today. Hopefully I'll get to the next one. Was there a to scale plan view? Plus perspectives from other angles?