Reading some of the totally over the top criticism of some of our local traders on this site over the last few months at first made me puzzled, then depressed. It now makes me increasingly angry.
It takes great persistence and effort to get new businesses to settle in Sydenham. One look at the high street puts most of them off. The owner of the BMC had a choice of two much more promising areas in which to open a new shop. He only chose this area thanks to the persistence of local bookshop owner Geraldine who is a personal friend - and the owner of the site (another local trader) who bent over backwards to ensure that all of the conditions, including rent, were met. The same goes for The Dolphin. We had practically to break Michael's arm before he agreed to even come and see a place in Sydenham.
Six months ago our town centre manager approached the Sydenham Society and asked what could be done about some of the heavy criticism of businesses on ST. She was finding that prospective businesses thinking about moving into the high street were looking on the site to get a flavour of local life and telling her that they were affected in their decision by what they perceived as the anti-business bias of much of the "comment". She felt it was a very definite disincentive to attracting local businesses. (The Sydenham Society, by the way, has no control over the content of ST).
Looking at some of the recent "critiques" I can see what our Town Centre Manager meant. The last two weeks has seen one individual pursuing a horrible personal vendetta against one particular business in the high street even posting attachments making fun of her appearance etc. It went on for over a week and is still continuing as this individual now tries to organise a "boycott" of her business.
What passes for criticism for other contributors is often little more than a hatchet job with little objectivity or fairness; some of them are even willing to write off a business but have never even set foot through the door, merely passed by in a car! All of this is done under the umbrella of anonymity by people who who would generally never dare confront the owner face to face with their views.
People tell me that surely this is only fair criticism and that the owners and staff will read the comments and amend their behaviour/business accordingly.
Really? Michael of the Dolphin is quite adamant that the opposite is the case. He was startled at the level of abuse and criticism from ST, reckoned they got a friendly welcome from SE23.com when they opened the Dartmouth Arms and has given up reading ST because it's so unfair. I pray that the owner of the BMC simply doesn't read ST either.
I could give you many more examples of the attitude of local businesses to this site. They increasingly see it as anti local business and acting as a brake on new businesses coming into the area. I can't say I blame them.
Is Sydenham Town anti local trader?
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sydenhamboy
- Posts: 264
- Joined: 8 Oct 2006 10:33
- Location: sydenham
It's a tough call. We want our high street to look great and it feels like sometimes the businesses don't. It can only ever be subjective criticism; but that's what an opinion is. I drove past the Sydenham Hypermarket with the clothes outside and it looked rubbish. There I've said it. But that isn't slagging off the proprietor or their wish to run a business - but yes it does question their notion of what makes a 'high street' attractive. My guess is they don't really know the changing demographic of Sydenham. It could also be argued that they are not overly interested in what our high street looks like; therefore the high street ends up looking old fashioned and scruffy. Yes - that is just my opinion but I have a hunch that a lot of people feel the same way. I'll still purchase goods from the store if the quality of the products is ok, but it will be with a sense of disappointment.
I agree with Sydenham Boy. It's the same in Brockley, you get similar comments on the Brockley Forum to what I have found here. If someone has a genuine comment they should be allowed to voice their opinion, negative or positive.
Some people seem to want to keep things as they are, rather than 'improving things'. At the end of the day any trader has to look at their business and make their own judgements from peoples comments. The BMC seems to be a real success, as does the Dolphin. They have generated real excitement.
I can't say I have really seen anything that amounts to a personal attack, although I haven't read every thread. Perhaps they were removed before I saw them.
This is a good site and is a great reference point to anyone wanting to invest in or move to the area.
Some people seem to want to keep things as they are, rather than 'improving things'. At the end of the day any trader has to look at their business and make their own judgements from peoples comments. The BMC seems to be a real success, as does the Dolphin. They have generated real excitement.
I can't say I have really seen anything that amounts to a personal attack, although I haven't read every thread. Perhaps they were removed before I saw them.
This is a good site and is a great reference point to anyone wanting to invest in or move to the area.
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
I hope the Sydenham Society's answer to the town centre manager was: 'Well, duh, improve your shops.'
Slagging off the hypermarket (even the cowardly and unamusing personal abuse by tongue in cheek) wouldn't put off prospective businesses. If it did they are either a) thinking off opening something just as awful or b) not really cut out for running any business if they can't take a few knocks.
Our town centre manager thinks this forum is the reason for the lack of interest? It's nothing to do with the shocking tat on sale, the illiterate signage and tired street furniture, the general lack of ambition/business sense and taste of too many of the traders? No, it's our fault for saying the Dophin's wall lights are a bit odd.
Slagging off the hypermarket (even the cowardly and unamusing personal abuse by tongue in cheek) wouldn't put off prospective businesses. If it did they are either a) thinking off opening something just as awful or b) not really cut out for running any business if they can't take a few knocks.
Our town centre manager thinks this forum is the reason for the lack of interest? It's nothing to do with the shocking tat on sale, the illiterate signage and tired street furniture, the general lack of ambition/business sense and taste of too many of the traders? No, it's our fault for saying the Dophin's wall lights are a bit odd.
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goonerchamp
- Posts: 167
- Joined: 28 Jun 2005 12:18
- Location: Sydenham, Sydenham where the f**k is Sydenham
I agree with you on that one - how many shops selling mops, buckets and sponges does one high street need? - and being so close to Croydon and Bromley's shopping metropolises - entices people to travel there for what they need and any shops that may attempt to open on our small high street suffer from a lack of interest - I refer to Mayo Maker in Forest Hill - good quality clothing store but never busy - I think one main difference that can be noted from the success that is East Dulwich and the attempts to duplicate that "vibe" in Forest Hill and Sydenham is the council in charge of the area in question ? - I personally don't think much of Lewisham council and the "Care" they show for their high streets and main roads (when the First snow of winter comes take a walk down Sydenham road - then take a walk down Lordship Lane - you'll notice exactly what I'm talking about !! 
)
)Sydenham Town anti-local trader? If it is nasaroc - I'm afraid local traders and the council need to take their share of the blame. I have regulary trudged the streets inviting traders, especially the new, to get themselves known on this site. They get offered a page - a FREE page about their business.
The result - just three pages taken. That, IMHO, is a disgrace. ST might not be the most influential organ in town - but I do find it difficult to understand how businesses can afford to pass up on free publicity.
I try and take care to praise where praise is due and keep a discrete silence when it is not. Frankly this website is here only because those paid to promote Sydenham were not doing it.
ST, on the otherhand, is not a propaganda machine. The Forum is here to be self-correcting. Praise too much and you can be sure someone will point out any downside. But over criticise and people do rush to the defence. That's what I see in the Londis & BM threads. Factor in one's own view of poster's credibility and overall do you get a false or a helpful picture of businesses? I know what I get.
I feel I can trust this community as a whole. I am often amazed at the quality and helpfulness of many contributions including yours. For me its well worth the annoying, thoughtless and sometimes just plain sad posts. That's why I try and keep them all.
You mention SE23.COM being less critical. That is because critical threads are not allowed. Are you suggesting we should follow suit? Is that the purpose of this thread?
Are proprietors upset about the criticism here? Believe me this concerns me because I want a vibrant street too (oh and not get sued). I have spoken to Mel, Richard and Michael about it and they tell me it is not a real problem. How come we hear different things from the same people?
On balance I would say all three have made more money as a result of ST. Not less.
And in the end Nasaroc the freedom to criticise Sydenham business applies to this website too. After all I am a Sydenham Trader too and far from perfect as you well know. I may question your criticisms but never your right to criticise. So fire on!
Admin
The result - just three pages taken. That, IMHO, is a disgrace. ST might not be the most influential organ in town - but I do find it difficult to understand how businesses can afford to pass up on free publicity.
I try and take care to praise where praise is due and keep a discrete silence when it is not. Frankly this website is here only because those paid to promote Sydenham were not doing it.
ST, on the otherhand, is not a propaganda machine. The Forum is here to be self-correcting. Praise too much and you can be sure someone will point out any downside. But over criticise and people do rush to the defence. That's what I see in the Londis & BM threads. Factor in one's own view of poster's credibility and overall do you get a false or a helpful picture of businesses? I know what I get.
I feel I can trust this community as a whole. I am often amazed at the quality and helpfulness of many contributions including yours. For me its well worth the annoying, thoughtless and sometimes just plain sad posts. That's why I try and keep them all.
You mention SE23.COM being less critical. That is because critical threads are not allowed. Are you suggesting we should follow suit? Is that the purpose of this thread?
Are proprietors upset about the criticism here? Believe me this concerns me because I want a vibrant street too (oh and not get sued). I have spoken to Mel, Richard and Michael about it and they tell me it is not a real problem. How come we hear different things from the same people?
On balance I would say all three have made more money as a result of ST. Not less.
And in the end Nasaroc the freedom to criticise Sydenham business applies to this website too. After all I am a Sydenham Trader too and far from perfect as you well know. I may question your criticisms but never your right to criticise. So fire on!
Admin
Shops, cafes etc are in the public eye, and the local population do talk about them, either in person or (nowadays) online. Indeed, customer review websites are fairly common-place these days, and if such comments were not posted here they would be posted elsewhere.
Overall (despite the odd exception) I don't think that there is much here that is untoward. There's a wide variety of opinion, just as there is a wide variety of people in Sydenham with different levels of income, background, taste and interests.
Both the Blue Mountain and the Dolphin are great additions to the high street, but they do serve a particular niche of the local population and are not aimed to please everyone. I think that people who don't want to pay their prices should be able to say so here. And if you paid your money but you don't think that you got value for money, then you should also be able to say so.
Overall (despite the odd exception) I don't think that there is much here that is untoward. There's a wide variety of opinion, just as there is a wide variety of people in Sydenham with different levels of income, background, taste and interests.
Both the Blue Mountain and the Dolphin are great additions to the high street, but they do serve a particular niche of the local population and are not aimed to please everyone. I think that people who don't want to pay their prices should be able to say so here. And if you paid your money but you don't think that you got value for money, then you should also be able to say so.
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DigitalFX
Shops in Sydenham
Ok...Time to add my thoughts to this......
My family althought now retired have worked in Sydenham shops for many years. (some will remember these) from the old Pollards, to K&B, treble clef and still doing well Whites pet centre. These were, and are shop's that were run well, and took pride in the area of the high street.
Some new bussniess should take a leaf at how some of the old shops have been running in Sydenham. Some of these new shops do make Sydenham look dirty and cheap and do not care about appearence or how their display windows looks. Put a few things in the window, wack up a cheap poster and then call it a shop.
We do have the right to comment on how Sydenham looks, as we are the people that on most days walk past them and may have to use them. At one time people took pride in retail, and it's sad to say like most of the good old shops in sydenahm....this too has vanashed.
Gaz
My family althought now retired have worked in Sydenham shops for many years. (some will remember these) from the old Pollards, to K&B, treble clef and still doing well Whites pet centre. These were, and are shop's that were run well, and took pride in the area of the high street.
Some new bussniess should take a leaf at how some of the old shops have been running in Sydenham. Some of these new shops do make Sydenham look dirty and cheap and do not care about appearence or how their display windows looks. Put a few things in the window, wack up a cheap poster and then call it a shop.
We do have the right to comment on how Sydenham looks, as we are the people that on most days walk past them and may have to use them. At one time people took pride in retail, and it's sad to say like most of the good old shops in sydenahm....this too has vanashed.
Gaz
I consider that NASARAC has a valid point with regard to how comments on this site could be interpreted.
While I fully agree with ADMIN with regard to the purpose of this site and our freedom to voice direct opinion, it should also be taken into account that if we really want to continue improving Sydenham some care is taken [notwithstanding being honest!] to ensure potential business/residents are not put off. Bearing in mind it is generally accepted that when our High Street is visited for the first time, unless you fully research and have positive feedback from locals there is a higher chance than for other areas that we would be bypassed.
I have visited the BMC and also found that the speed of service was not what I expected – perhaps I am too forgiving however it is a huge challenge setting up a new business and I would simply comment that if I visit a 3rd and 4th time I would address this with the owner direct to ensure they are aware of the impact to customers who may not return.
Cost of food drinks? Not sure that prices have been geared to Sydenham specifically given this is a chain, however I do not believe the owners expect ALL residents of Sydenham to use this cafe and boycott any others on the basis it is new. This is a new ADDITIONAL business to Sydenham and those who feel it is not for them should be able to frequent another businesses for their needs or take positive steps to attract a business which would suit them...AND a marketable majority in the area.
Let’s work on Sydenham’s potential!
While I fully agree with ADMIN with regard to the purpose of this site and our freedom to voice direct opinion, it should also be taken into account that if we really want to continue improving Sydenham some care is taken [notwithstanding being honest!] to ensure potential business/residents are not put off. Bearing in mind it is generally accepted that when our High Street is visited for the first time, unless you fully research and have positive feedback from locals there is a higher chance than for other areas that we would be bypassed.
I have visited the BMC and also found that the speed of service was not what I expected – perhaps I am too forgiving however it is a huge challenge setting up a new business and I would simply comment that if I visit a 3rd and 4th time I would address this with the owner direct to ensure they are aware of the impact to customers who may not return.
Cost of food drinks? Not sure that prices have been geared to Sydenham specifically given this is a chain, however I do not believe the owners expect ALL residents of Sydenham to use this cafe and boycott any others on the basis it is new. This is a new ADDITIONAL business to Sydenham and those who feel it is not for them should be able to frequent another businesses for their needs or take positive steps to attract a business which would suit them...AND a marketable majority in the area.
Let’s work on Sydenham’s potential!
I was going to write up my opinion on this - but I pretty much 100% agree with Admin's write up.
Just to add:
1. There is nothing to be gained by pretending all is perfect in a business if it is not even coming close - Emperor's New Clothes syndrome. People are not stupid and if you try to mislead them you lose credibility.
2. I strongly feel that new businesses should be supported and given some slight leeway in terms of not being OVERLY harsh if there are issues.
3. I also feel we should accentuate the positive, and be specific and fairminded in any negatives.
4. We should not make generalised / personalised attacks - but at the same time, the minority of comments like that should not be a reason for censorship or even too much concern - those people making those comments undermine their own good name.
In summary, keep it fair, keep it real and keep it coming!
Just to add:
1. There is nothing to be gained by pretending all is perfect in a business if it is not even coming close - Emperor's New Clothes syndrome. People are not stupid and if you try to mislead them you lose credibility.
2. I strongly feel that new businesses should be supported and given some slight leeway in terms of not being OVERLY harsh if there are issues.
3. I also feel we should accentuate the positive, and be specific and fairminded in any negatives.
4. We should not make generalised / personalised attacks - but at the same time, the minority of comments like that should not be a reason for censorship or even too much concern - those people making those comments undermine their own good name.
In summary, keep it fair, keep it real and keep it coming!
I wouldn't worry too much on behalf of BMC. As has already been mentioned surely one would hope they'd be tough skinned enough to cope with a little criticism. They know their business - and they are going to be the ones laughing all the way to the bank I promise you.
Same goes for the Dolphin and any other business on the high street that makes an intelligent effort to fill a much needed niche.
Same goes for the Dolphin and any other business on the high street that makes an intelligent effort to fill a much needed niche.
anti local trader
Admin, I don't know if you have the time, but do you think you could print out some of the the many positive comments about the Dolphin, BMC, the very positive DIY shop thread that I started and others. Blimey, I am shocked that negative comments from two or three posters out of more that 1,000 registered users and I don't know how many people living in Sydenham (3,000 - 4,000) could have so much influence that they could put local businesses off opening here. That is just crazy! And it's pointless comparing Sydenham high street to Croydon and Bromley. We are never going to have a Topshop or Next here, come on, and do we want to by like Croydon (I certainly don't)?!! But as somenone who would love to shop more locally and do so as much as possible, we could definately do with some more men's and women's boutiques, a good children's toy shop like Soup Dragon in ED and a good quality household goods shop, fish shop and butchers. The ED forum which has far more users than this site is littered with criticism of local businesses but is also full of incredibly proud/enthusiastic posts about the area, much like ours.
Thank you for your post Poppy. I think the problem here is people see what they want to. I see mostly positive posts. Look for negative posts and you will find them too. And reports of hurt feelings.
Do they affect new business as Nasaroc suggests?
I see the TCM regulary and she has never versed any criticism about this Forum to me. And I do assure her that the website is here to promote her activities - see: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/event_town_c ... nager.html. I'm sure if she had a real problem she would tell me so. Indeed it would be her duty. I will check when we meet next time.
That being said there is clearly some who find the pound shops deeply dispiriting and others who find BM/Dolphin too pretentious and say so. Both viewpoints are, of course, valid, but thankfully there is sufficient diversity to make both retail approaches feasible in Sydenham. And many of us patronise both. The serious issue is retail vacancies and until there are none I'm sure most of us here would welcome *any* business that wants to try here. With the TCM, SydSoc and (dare one suggest) SydTown new businesses have a unique set of potential friends and customers willing them on. That's money in the till for the brave.
As for the quality of service - that is always going to be an issue in UK retail. Traders tell me that getting and retaining good people is about their hardest task and despite their best efforts they often fail.
Not a problem we can solve here - save for praising good service when we get it and make proprietors aware of when poor service is going to detract from our custom. If, of course, that criticism is coming from people who clearly wouldn't step inside the shop anyway - then I think we can assume their rants will be quietly ignored.
Anyway - a special plea to Nasaroc. You are a valuable and great asset to Sydenham and the Forum. We both share a little grumpiness when it comes to folks who sometimes post irresponsibly. The difference is that as 'umpire' I try to resist making my personal views known. I rely on smart people like you to firmly smash into the covers any thoughtless comment casually tossed up. I don't think you realise how effective you are!
Here's hoping this post wasn't too thoughtless
Admin
Do they affect new business as Nasaroc suggests?
I see the TCM regulary and she has never versed any criticism about this Forum to me. And I do assure her that the website is here to promote her activities - see: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/event_town_c ... nager.html. I'm sure if she had a real problem she would tell me so. Indeed it would be her duty. I will check when we meet next time.
That being said there is clearly some who find the pound shops deeply dispiriting and others who find BM/Dolphin too pretentious and say so. Both viewpoints are, of course, valid, but thankfully there is sufficient diversity to make both retail approaches feasible in Sydenham. And many of us patronise both. The serious issue is retail vacancies and until there are none I'm sure most of us here would welcome *any* business that wants to try here. With the TCM, SydSoc and (dare one suggest) SydTown new businesses have a unique set of potential friends and customers willing them on. That's money in the till for the brave.
As for the quality of service - that is always going to be an issue in UK retail. Traders tell me that getting and retaining good people is about their hardest task and despite their best efforts they often fail.
Not a problem we can solve here - save for praising good service when we get it and make proprietors aware of when poor service is going to detract from our custom. If, of course, that criticism is coming from people who clearly wouldn't step inside the shop anyway - then I think we can assume their rants will be quietly ignored.
Anyway - a special plea to Nasaroc. You are a valuable and great asset to Sydenham and the Forum. We both share a little grumpiness when it comes to folks who sometimes post irresponsibly. The difference is that as 'umpire' I try to resist making my personal views known. I rely on smart people like you to firmly smash into the covers any thoughtless comment casually tossed up. I don't think you realise how effective you are!
Here's hoping this post wasn't too thoughtless
Admin
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GLOBAL THINKER
- Posts: 179
- Joined: 2 Nov 2004 13:20
- Location: SYDENHAM
Perhaps one way of making the high street a bit more cohesive in terms of looks is for Lewisham Council to limit the types of shop signs/banners/colours that new businesses can use. Not so that all the shops look identical but so that continuity can be seen when you look down (and up ) the high street.
BMC looks great and welcoming and whilst it's easy to blame new businesses for lack of foresight in terms of looks, I think it is up to the TCM and Lewisham Council to help and guide new business not only ensuring that customers step over the threshold, but that the message is given out that Sydenham is a quality place to open a business and that the quality must be maintained.
) the high street. BMC looks great and welcoming and whilst it's easy to blame new businesses for lack of foresight in terms of looks, I think it is up to the TCM and Lewisham Council to help and guide new business not only ensuring that customers step over the threshold, but that the message is given out that Sydenham is a quality place to open a business and that the quality must be maintained.
Just as an aside to Poppy's excellent post - there is a very good butcher diagonally opposite the library - called Home Park Butchers they have organic chicken and meat, home-made sausages, calves liver etc, much of which comes from their own farm in Kent. They also have stalls at farmers' markets, including the one in Dulwich. Sadly Sydenham Fisheries (a long-standing institution) closed about three years ago - and is greatly missed! As for household goods, I would have thought that the various pound shops supply more than enough of these - although obviously not very smartly presented!
I am no way against traders in Sydenham but the fact is most the shops are rubbish and look run down.
How many so called newsagents does one need around Sydenham train station?
The shop signs are ugly and delapidated and I agree that there are too many places selling mops etc.
I have said before that I would love the high street to contain decent shops and bars.
The problem is rubbish shops open and close as not many people want to buy things from them.
It would be great if I could shop on the high street instead of travelling to Beckenham or Bromley.
The buildings are beautiful but are not given the chance to shine.
Lower Sydenham is a dive in my opinion. It is dirty and has awful shops.
I love the bookshop, the new blue mountain cafe, the dolphin, the small boots, but not much else.
I would love for us to have a waitrose, wh smith, better bars, marks and spencers, etc as it would really raise the tone and the game for the area.
Smaller traders would open as more people would shop on the high street.
It can happen as it has happened elsewhere ie Wandsworth.
I do not purchase items from the majority of the high street as I do not wish to support my local shops as I do not wish for the majority of them to stay open.
I wish that was not the case but it is and I know a lot of other people that feel the same.
If there was decent places then by all means I would love to shop there and would fully support the traders.
How many so called newsagents does one need around Sydenham train station?
The shop signs are ugly and delapidated and I agree that there are too many places selling mops etc.
I have said before that I would love the high street to contain decent shops and bars.
The problem is rubbish shops open and close as not many people want to buy things from them.
It would be great if I could shop on the high street instead of travelling to Beckenham or Bromley.
The buildings are beautiful but are not given the chance to shine.
Lower Sydenham is a dive in my opinion. It is dirty and has awful shops.
I love the bookshop, the new blue mountain cafe, the dolphin, the small boots, but not much else.
I would love for us to have a waitrose, wh smith, better bars, marks and spencers, etc as it would really raise the tone and the game for the area.
Smaller traders would open as more people would shop on the high street.
It can happen as it has happened elsewhere ie Wandsworth.
I do not purchase items from the majority of the high street as I do not wish to support my local shops as I do not wish for the majority of them to stay open.
I wish that was not the case but it is and I know a lot of other people that feel the same.
If there was decent places then by all means I would love to shop there and would fully support the traders.
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Bovine Juice
- Posts: 273
- Joined: 14 Oct 2007 11:35
- Location: Penge
anti local trader
Ruby, what about Wellbeing, the DIY shop, Snappy Snaps and Slatters? There is also a really good stationers next to Somerfield - they stock some lovely cards too - the museum ones. My daughter also loves the pet shop and the charity shops are pretty good. The newsagents near the post office is always really busy so obviously needed down this way. You can also choose from a vast array of spices and veg and fruit not available in Somerfield at the Turkish-style delis either side of Superdrug -they are very useful and very reasonable - some high streets would kill for what we have. And of course the fantastic Gurkas. Milano do good coffees too. And some of the pound shops are really useful (although one would be enough). I think the pavements and dreadful street furniture and lack of greenery have the worst affect on the appearance of the high street frankly and the poorly maintained upper floors of many of the shops.
I'd say brutally honest.
The reason I started the other thread (what shops you would like in the high street) was because having seen about 30 properties around the area a lot of people I met who had lived in the area a long time were angry at how the high street had changed and how tatty it looked.
Some people are a bit more tactful, others aren't. I don't think it's a deliberate wind up, there seems to be genuine concern. And not just by people who have moved to the area, from people who have lived there for years.
The reason I started the other thread (what shops you would like in the high street) was because having seen about 30 properties around the area a lot of people I met who had lived in the area a long time were angry at how the high street had changed and how tatty it looked.
Some people are a bit more tactful, others aren't. I don't think it's a deliberate wind up, there seems to be genuine concern. And not just by people who have moved to the area, from people who have lived there for years.