Water leak on Silverdale

[JRobinson]

There's a website called LiveLeak - maybe it could be bought out, and repurposed for reporting Thames Water issues.

[mosy]

The one at the junction of Silverdale and Sydenham Road is still running gallons a minute merrily down the stream. Today, 10 Dec, is Day 17 since I first noticed it. It's referred to in email replies that Tim Lund posted so clearly they're aware of it. As it's coming up from the road itself, you'd think they'd have the right to dig that up if necessary, but who knows what's holding action up. Just hoping someone cares.

[Tim Lund]

People care, but the question is whether the structures in place mean the problem gets solved. I hesitate a bit to post all the emails, because they are not actually for publication, so even with individuals' names removed, I feel I am taking a bit of a risk. Also, it could get rather tedious.

A part of it which interest me is whether a private company, such as Thames Water, as owners and operators of vital parts of our infrastructure, have a corresponding duty to publish all the information they have about where mains and sewers are, and what condition they are in. It's a moral argument, and also an economic one, in that by putting information in the public domain, the length of time it takes to get things done will come down, and it's not just Thames Water who can use the information, to its advantage rather than the public's. OTOH, there are legal issues about which I know very little, and making this sort of information public will cost, and won't immediately solve problems such as the current leaks along Silverdale.

[JRobinson]

If you send Thames Water a request for the data, using the Freedom of Information act (FOI), they have to reply to you. If they deem the request to be propriatory data, restricted somehow under the Data Protection Act (DPA), then they won't give you the data, if they deem that it'll take a considerable amount of time to collect the data for the FOI then they can charge you for it, otherwise they'll have to supply it to you.

However, if you're asking for the location of all their 'plant', pipes, drainage, sewers, etc, you might come unstuck as a lot of it was installed in Victorian times, and they just dug up the road, dug a trench, placed the pipes in and covered it back over, quite often only noting down which road they're on. No computers, or GIS back then, and paper maps not necessarily accurate, so in some cases Thames Water don't know where stuff is, and it's a similar story for other utilites too (maybe not cable though, as that's a lot newer).

There is an organisation based in The City, working to coordinate such underground assets, called National Underground Assets Group (NUAG), which aims to be a one stop shop for utilities, councils, contractors, etc wanting to know about what plant is underground, so that trial holes and trenches can be dug in the right place, reducing the time on site, etc.

[Tim Lund]

If you send Thames Water a request for the data, using the Freedom of Information act (FOI), they have to reply to you. If they deem the request to be propriatory data, restricted somehow under the Data Protection Act (DPA), then they won't give you the data, if they deem that it'll take a considerable amount of time to collect the data for the FOI then they can charge you for it, otherwise they'll have to supply it to you.

However, if you're asking for the location of all their 'plant', pipes, drainage, sewers, etc, you might come unstuck as a lot of it was installed in Victorian times, and they just dug up the road, dug a trench, placed the pipes in and covered it back over, quite often only noting down which road they're on. No computers, or GIS back then, and paper maps not necessarily accurate, so in some cases Thames Water don't know where stuff is, and it's a similar story for other utilites too (maybe not cable though, as that's a lot newer).

There is an organisation based in The City, working to coordinate such underground assets, called National Underground Assets Group (NUAG), which aims to be a one stop shop for utilities, councils, contractors, etc wanting to know about what plant is underground, so that trial holes and trenches can be dug in the right place, reducing the time on site, etc.

Thank you so much - that is exactly the sort of thing I need to know. I'll refer to the NUAG in subsequent emails.

[mosy]

Again, interesting and much appreciated to have info about how things work rather than just (me) armchair grumbling.

The leak at the top end of Silverdale seems to be in a straight line to a "join"(?) that has failed several times, about 50 yds down where water comes up through the road, but they've usually fixed that one quite quickly, so there must be something different about the current top leak.

Does GIS mean geophys (as used on Time Watch lol) to detect from above what's below? (Like the gadget to find elec/copper cables in walls.)

I wonder if they know just how much water is running away. I guess so if going through supply meters and it must end up somewhere once it's gone down the drain,

[JRobinson]

GIS - Geographical Information System - basically a database of things, with a location element, displayable on a map.
the location element can be grid reference (easting, Northing), or X,Y ref (Longitude,Latitude), or a postcode will do.
GIS are powerful analytical tools (with the right data and the right queries) - for instance, every Tesco clubcard holder is on a database, which includes their home address, post code, and other information, Tesco can display where their costomers live, against where the stores are, to produce a map, obviously if there's a huge gap with few clubcard holders, but a store there, then they need to do clubcard membership marketing in that store, if there are a lot of shoppers going a long way to their nearest Tesco, then they can locate the median position most likely to be a good location for a new store. They could plot age, or sex, or buying habits, or anything that they've got data on.

You can detect some pipes underground, or cables, if they're metal, you can pass a current through from one access point to the next, and use a machine that picks up that current underground, but this doesn't work for plastic pipes.

I suspect that they have a rough idea of leakage amounts, but not every customer has a water meter, so they won't know exactly how much is being used.

some contractors are now putting RFID tags in sealed units at each junction when doing works, and these can be read from the surface with an RFID reader without digging up the junction, they have information like location, and details about the specific plant, and presumable what direction etc. stuff is going in.

[mosy]

Thanks JRobinson. I'd forgotten that new pipes were typically plastic; hopefully they'll avoid the furring-up problems of the old metal ones. The RFID things sound like a plan, at least where installed.

GIS would be good for pipes, though it always smacks of big brother and manipulation when it's applied to tracking people.

[Tim Lund]

I am sorry for the time taken to fix the leaks in Silverdale. We have had difficulties pin-pointing the exact location of the leak. We are attending today to exchange two of our valves which are faulty and leaking. This will allow us to prove if the leak is on our water main.

We have also found three private leaks, two have already been fixed and we are liaising with the customer concerned to resolve the final leak as soon as possible.

I hope this information is helpful, I will contact you again by Friday 20 December with a further update

[Tim Lund]

I spoke to the senior Lewisham officer on this case yesterday, part for reassurance that posting here and campaigning in this way was helpful (it is), but also to mention these other two leaks:

At the top of Silverdale



On Kirkdale, near the bookshop



I'll now email a link to this post.

[mosy]

Could I just add that your photo for the top end of Silverdale shows the worst (fastest flowing) leak, but a few feet across from it is another leak coming up through the road. Possibly the same leak finding a different exit point?

[biscuitman1978]

On Kirkdale, near the bookshop

I reported this leak to Thames Water a couple of weeks ago via their website.

It was recorded on their live map of known leaks but the record has now disappeared, despite the problem not being resolved.

I've now reported it again.

[mosy]

Without wishing to bore you all, the leak at the top end of Silverdale is still rolling merrily merrily down the stream at least a gallon a minute I'd say (first noticed by me on 24 Nov, so now Day 35). I guess it'll be mended some time in the New Year - should I be taking bets on Feb, April, June?

[mosy]

Into the New Year now and today 8 Jan the top end of Silverdale leak is still rolling merrily down the stream - now Day 46 since I first noticed it.

[Eagle]

Has one complained to the Water Watchdog , is it Ofwat ?


Surely this is the path to go.

[Tim Lund]

Some people have another sort of problem with Thames water

[Jacks]

In fairness, Thames Water did actually have two vans at the site late on Sunday night. They did things like walk up and down the street and let water out of other 'vents' (for want of another word) and look at the leak in a puzzled way but their visit seemed fairly short lived. I've reported the leak three times now - it seems to disappear off the Thames Water website quite frequently. I suspect they will have to dig up the road to resolve the issue to be honest.

[Tim Lund]

10 January 2014

Our Ref: 33105857

Leaks in Silverdale

Dear Councillor Paschoud

I am sorry for the delay in updating you on this matter. As there are several leaks that we are investigating in Silverdale, Sydenham Road and Thriffwood. We are attending tomorrow to carry out further investigations.

I will contact you again next week with a further update. If you need to speak to me about this matter, please call me on []. I am in the office between 9am and 5pm, Monday to Friday.

Yours sincerely

[]

Customer Resolution

So, something is being done, and my slightly grudging thanks to John Paschoud for taking up this case.

Why grudging? Because companies such as Thames Water should in the first place serve us as customers and citizens, and we shouldn't have to copy in local councillors to make them do what they should anyway.

[mosy]

I'm genuinely surprised that it's taken Thames Water quite this length of time to fix the Silverdale top end leak. Perhaps whilst thanking the councillor, you could ask him to ask for an explanation considering gallons a minute for 6 weeks+ is rather more than a damp patch and presumably as they've found the leak under the road it can't be attributed to private properties adjacent. No doubt there are several good reasons for the delay, just wondering what they are.

I forgot to ask if they were going to install one of those remote-readable monitor thingies, mentioned earlier in this thread. I'll ask tomorrow if the leak people are still there and see if they know what the heck I'm on about. I'll have missed the chance to ask if it is road repair people tomorrow.

[JRobinson]

the water leak at the brow of the hill, on Silverdale, opposite Bishopsthorp still appears to be running.

on another note, related to location of underground assets, National Grid have launched utility record information website to prevent asset damage