Tim Lund wrote: Quite possibly they would not give you the time of day, but even then, it would be advisable to avoid rhetoric about wicked, unscrupulous, greedy landlords, because that created an atmosphere which will put off other landlords.
Well we'd put forward one of the diplomats amongst us - possibly you, Tim.
Well, I'm sure you'd agree that I'd make more progress than Mary, and I'm thick skinned enough that I wouldn't mind the inevitable accusations of colluding with wicked, evil, greedy landlords, which I would confidently expect.
Diplomacy is not just about saying nice things to people; it's about understanding a situation, identifying what is possible, and sticking to a reasonable, justifiable line of action. When others don't accept your understanding, the more clearly you explain your position, the more infuriating it can be for them.
Tim Lund wrote: Quite possibly they would not give you the time of day, but even then, it would be advisable to avoid rhetoric about wicked, unscrupulous, greedy landlords, because that created an atmosphere which will put off other landlords.
Well we'd put forward one of the diplomats amongst us - possibly you, Tim.
Well, I'm sure you'd agree that I'd make more progress than Mary, and I'm thick skinned enough that I wouldn't mind the inevitable accusations of colluding with wicked, evil, greedy landlords, which I would confidently expect.
Diplomacy is not just about saying nice things to people; it's about understanding a situation, identifying what is possible, and sticking to a reasonable, justifiable line of action. When others don't accept your understanding, the more clearly you explain your position, the more infuriating it can be for them.
Well I'd agree that you're thick skinned Tim. Would people agree Tim would make more progress than me? Check out his record. Just remind people please Tim, how many groups have you been involved with that you've fallen out with?
I think anyone putting in as much effort as Mary is for the community should be congratulated, regardless of apparent opposition she is trying to help locals, I would support most campaigns that appear to be doing that.
JulietP wrote:It's rather concerning that in this and the other Windmill thread the following rule seems to apply:
Anyone that disagrees with Mary's worldview = misinformed, misguided, lacking in humanity, spiteful and vilified.
No wonder everyone who disagrees has quietly slipped away, unwilling to be berated and scolded into submission.
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marymck wrote:"choose to protect our social spaces over mega supermarket chains". "ranted and raved, called customers scum and unsuspecting women prostitutes". "banged on ad infinitum". "vicious things some people have said on this site about ordinary, decent people frankly has disgusted me". "snipers have to barge in, intent on trashing others efforts". "Sainsburys will give you a bonus on your nectar cards."
I wonder if you really intended to prove my point quite so emphatically...
Last edited by JulietP on 3 Dec 2013 18:38, edited 1 time in total.
I have no intention of trying to change your mind Juliet. As I've said many times in here, everyone is entitled to their opinion. It's when people claim their opinions are facts that I cringe. I hope you'll be very happy in Kent.
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Last edited by marymck on 3 Dec 2013 17:45, edited 1 time in total.
As Director of Sydenham Arts Festival, I would love to bring events to The Windmill. However, as I have said to Mary only recently, my annual efforts to interest the landlady in supporting the festival again (after our Bollywood Music & Dance event in 2009) have come to nothing. This has been a continual frustration year after year.
However, I have just popped in to the Windmill and left this year's festival brochure with Sue behind the bar, asking the landlady to get in touch with me. If I get a positive reaction, we can hopefully discuss staging some diverse music and other events there. That would certainly make a change from their regular programme of tribute acts, however good they might be.
As regards turning the Windmill into a pub-theatre and/or cinema - I'd be very interested in this idea. Is there much room upstairs?
Jonathan Kaufman
Director, Sydenham Arts Festival & Spontaneous Productions (Sydenham-based theatre company)
Thank you for that Jonathan, as I explained I think it was the previous landlady you saw, as the current landlady said she would be very interested when I mentioned this to her, but didn't know who you' d spoken to.
There is no room upstairs, as the beer cellar us there.
Fingers crossed the Windmill survives for the Arts Festival to use again.
Have I ever been in the Windmill? - A: no.
Would I go in if it were renovated to a decent pub? - A: absolutely YES!
Would I shop in Sainsbury? - A: almost certainly not.
other things to note, are that I live on the wrong side of the railway line, so The Windmill is not my local, so I don't go past on a regular basis. I would go there to use the pub if it was a decent pub. I wouldn't travel there to use Sainsbury (as there is one nearer, and I'm trying to avoid all large supermarkets if possible).
so when I say I'd like to save The Windmill that isn't strictly true - I'd like to save the location as a pub, a decent pub, one that I'd be prepared to travel to get to to enjoy a night out (like going to The Hob, The Dolphin, The Dartmouth Arms, The Sylvan Post, All Inn One, Blythe Hill Tavern, etc, etc, etc.). I certainly don't want to see it turned into another supermarket.
I understand that it's entirely up to the owner of the building who he rents to, and what lease he gives out, and how much rent he charges. I don't think that's right in certain circumstances.
What we have to accept is that there just isn't a big enough market to sustain a pub on this site. We have already had the Woodman shut which demonstrates that there just isn't the demand. Perhaps with the Windmill closing it might give a boost to and ensure the survival of The Foxes.
I don't have any feelings either way on Sainsbury's - one can only assume that they have undertaken a feasibility study that tells them there is a big enough market for them to participate in. But I do think that it is encouraging that a major company wants to invest in the area, that perhaps it will help encourage others to do so. Whatever happens I would rather have a Sainsbury's there rather than another empty unit - which will surely happen otherwise when (not if) The Windmill closes.
someone with a tablet PC should go into the Windmill, use their WIFI, and get everyone in there to sign up.
repeat at different times of day over different days of the week for maximum affect.
The windmill doesn't have WiFi. It doesn't even have a phone because the owner had it cut off years ago. No one can actually book an event unless they can go in in person. That's one of the first things we'll change if we can save the pub: get the phone reconnected, get a website, make it a WiFi hotspot. When I checked this morning the petition stood at 90. Our target is 100.
But you're right, a large percentage of the Windmill's patrons don't have internet access. We've had two paper petitions. The first (much bigger one) was stolen by the owners. The second was handed in to Lewisham Council. This online petition is aimed at Sainsburys and our elected officials, who receive a lobbying email every time someone signs.
Yes the manager has her own personal mobile. She is an employee. Would Sainsburys expect their manager to list her personal mobile as THE Sainsburys contact number and not claim any expenses? The owners will not have either a mobile or landline for the windmill.(I have of course said all this before on this site.) This is just one of many of the examples of how the owners have stacked the odds against the business. I honestly don't understand who you mean Lee by "the new people running"? The owners bought the pub from weatherspoons and immediately started running it down, failing to carry out maintenance and had the phone cut off. There's only so much an employee can do, without being terribly out of pocket. The owners have never managed the pub (or, as far as I am aware, any pub) themselves.
Sorry Mary, im getting confused. So what you are saying is that the people running the pub are the landlords and freeholders and they are selling it to sainsburys. They don't have a telephone number for thier pub. The current employees are therefore struggling to run the pub properly day to day because the owners don't have a working oven, phone etc? Yet the pub still runs at a profit? Am I also right in presuming that the current employees are fairly recent?
Sorry Lee if I'm not explaining this very well. But the owners have never hands on run the pub. They leased the pub in a yearly renewable basis to a publican until two years ago. Since then the pub has been run by employees, I.e. directly employed by the owners. The current manager has been I think officially doing the job I think for just over a year. The owners are not local. They are a family run property development company with a big portfolio of properties. At least one of which was (I'm not sure it still is!) a pub.
So it is the owners who are disposing of the pub. It's nothing to do with the employees. Actually to complicate matters further the owners are LEASING it to Sainsburys for 15 years. But Sainsburys intend to make so many structural alterations that the building - which is a well designed access compliant multi function space, can never be used as a function room again.
So in 15 years time - or as soon as Sainsburys decide they don't need it - e.g. when Cobbs corner Sainsburys opens - they can just walk away. Leaving a trashed, empty space.
Phone battery warning light flashing! Hope that makes sense.
Interested to see that Duedil says the owner's credit score has changed in the last 60 days. It'll cost you £11.99, so I'm not bothering, but it shows its current health as 'Active'. I wouldn't mind betting this has something to do with securing Sainsbury's as a tenant.
Its total assets are just over £15m, and it has a mortgage on a property in the High Street, Margate.
From what Mary writes, it seems they have been earning some income from running the place as a pub - what I assume she means by saying that it is running profitably - but that they are going to get a larger and more secure income - over 15 years - from leasing it to Sainsbury's.
marymck wrote:Sainsburys intend to make so many structural alterations that the building - which is a well designed access compliant multi function space, can never be used as a function room again.
This has to be an exaggeration. Obviously there's a cost to any refitting, and a cost to reversing a refitting, but I can't see how any changes Sainsbury's might make can make it impossible to go back to an earlier use; it's just a matter of cost, and if pubs do become more profitable in future, then it can as easily go back to being a pub as now it is going to be a supermarket.
