Online petition to save the Windmill

[Tim Lund]

Tim!!!!!!!
You do see how ludicrous that comment is surely ?
Of course you met someone who failed to make a living running pub . Trouble is you could swap "pub" for any business you can name .

Indeed, but much easier to find examples of failing pubs than other businesses people invest in, because it is a declining sector.

You are adding nothing to this discussion other than a sense of you know best .
Tell us how having Sainsburys will bring benefit to Sydenham - but a few basic rules first .
You can't say "it will bring employment " because pound for pound supermarkets employ fewer.
You can't mention " choice" because it is simply a limp and embarrassing line of thought .
You can't mention " something new in Sydenham " because it obviously isn't .
I estimate the sole benefit at around 4 nectar points but over to you professor
Good evening
Nig

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Well, all I can offer is that people seem to want to spend more money in supermarkets than pubs.

[Robin Orton]

I didn't sigh the petition because I am a great admirer of the Windmill. On the few occasions I've patronized it, I found it unattractively cavernous and lacking in individuality. What I'm really concerned about is the prospect of Sainsbury's taking over the premises. I assume that the only way that they will able to make the place profitable is by driving other nearby shops, e.g. Ram's, out of business. I know that competition is in the economic interests of the consumer, that market forces must not be constrained, etc etc. But I think we need to look beyond purely economic considerations. Small, friendly, relatively inefficient shops are part of the social ecology of the area, which we vandalize at our peril.

[marymck]

Oh Tim you know so much about so much, but how little you know of the UK pub business and how little you know of humanity. Sigh. Clearly you will always be right, you must always be right, you must always know best. And don't you ever let the facts or the people get in your way. I was going to point you to some reports on UK pubs. But do you know what? I've had enough of you and your undermining of other people's efforts and your trampling on other people's feelings. I hope you and your Sainsburys will be very happy together. Me, i'll stick to my friends, and my pub, and the craic and the things that I know are the things that matter. The things that make a community. I don't need to try to sabotage other people's petitions or to tell other people how they should spend their time.

But really Tim, all you can offer is "people spend more money in supermarkets than pubs." Well really!?

You really do know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

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[Tim Lund]

But really Tim, all you can offer is "people spend more money in supermarkets than pubs." Well really!?

You really do know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

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Yes, really, it's that simple.

[Tim Lund]

Oh Tim you know so much about so much, but how little you know of the UK pub business and how little you know of humanity.

I'll take the first part as a complement, and refer to you the thread you started on allotments for the last part. I know rather more of humanity that you will care to admit.

[parker]

Why are you guys picking on Tim...? He's far more diplomatic than a lot of you on here.

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[marymck]

Oh Tim you know so much about so much, but how little you know of the UK pub business and how little you know of humanity.

I'll take the first part as a complement, and refer to you the thread you started on allotments for the last part. I know rather more of humanity that you will care to admit.

Oh dear I thought I was being as subtle as a brick with that one. And with the other thread. But obviously too much subtlety and not enough brick.

Sadly Tim you THINK you know humanity. But perhaps you really should ask yourself how many times you are the only one marching in step?

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[marymck]

To try to get back to the important business of this thread ...

The link is in the first post.

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[JulietP]

It's rather concerning that in this and the other Windmill thread the following rule seems to apply:

Anyone that disagrees with Mary's worldview = misinformed, misguided, lacking in humanity, spiteful and vilified.

No wonder everyone who disagrees has quietly slipped away, unwilling to be berated and scolded into submission.

I, for one, have no intention of signing. I think the windmill is an unwelcoming, ugly dive and would be happy to see it go. And I refuse to be guilt-tripped or patronised into changing my mind.

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[marymck]

It's rather concerning that in this and the other Windmill thread the following rule seems to apply:

Anyone that disagrees with Mary's worldview = misinformed, misguided, lacking in humanity, spiteful and vilified.

No wonder everyone who disagrees has quietly slipped away, unwilling to be berated and scolded into submission.

I, for one, have no intention of signing. I think the windmill is an unwelcoming, ugly dive and would be happy to see it go. And I refuse to be guilt-tripped or patronised into changing my mind.

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Fine. No one is forcing you to sign. No one is forcing anyone to choose to protect our social spaces over mega supermarket chains. But there is another windmill thread where people have ranted and raved, called customers scum and unsuspecting women prostitutes and banged on ad infinitum. The vicious things some people have said on this site about ordinary, decent people frankly has disgusted me.

Can we not PLEASE keep the arguments for that thread. This thread was meant purely to quickly point those who care and want to sign to a petition. but as usual the snipers have to barge in, intent on trashing others efforts. Well done all who are supporting Sainsburys by diverting yet another thread, such that no one will even bother to search through this lot to even look for the petition. Perhaps Sainsburys will give you a bonus on your nectar cards.

But actually of course Juliet, you've moved to Kent. So I guess no problem for you if sydenham's few remaining pubs do get taken over by supermarkets and all our small independent shops close. Watch out though - the mega chains could be coming for your local next.

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[parker]

Mary, maybe you could take over the running of The Windmill if you love it this much. Why is it then that you didn't make such a fuss over The Woodman? Or did you? OR is it just Sainsbury's you detest...?

I want to get one thing straight, I don't particularly want another supermarket there. I'd like a really decent pub or wine bar with a good clientele and great food but it seems a Sainsbury's is the most likely sustainable option. The Tesco next door is rubbish and is about as expensive as an M&S Simply Food with inferior quality food, hopefully they will shut within 2 years of Sainsbury's opening. Tesco could make a great cafe/bar that's suited to the size of the area.

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[marymck]

I'd love to Parker. But I'm not a publican and I fear I'd be no better at running a pub than Tim's friend. Far better to leave it to the highly experienced publican who IS interested in taking on the lease of the Windmill. Unfortunately, if Sainsbury's have their way that is not an option.

I am going to try to redirect this to the original discussion.

Here ...

http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... &start=220

[dickp]

A quick survey for STF members:

When was the last time you visited the Windmill Pub (Me: About a month ago, to see what the fuss was about)

When was the last time you visited a Sainsbury's (Me: This morning, in Crystal Palace)

Do you intend to visit the Windmill Pub in the near future (Me: No, I think it's rubbish)

If you answered "no" to the previous question, do you think you would visit the Windmill Pub if it was operated by someone else? (Me: No, I generally just don't like modern, "hanger"-style pubs.)

Would you shop at Sainsbury's if it opened on that site (Yes. In general, I prefer Sainsbury's to Tesco's, and would happy switch shops given the chance)

[Annie.]

If the pub was revamped and inviting as I am sure it could be, I would visit it with family who live in surrounding area.

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[Eagle]

Many people who want the pub closed assume Mary , and others , just want a continuation of the current pub with their somewhat mixed clientelle.

I am assuming this is not the case and they would want a complete re vamp to discourage the people that have been refered to in derogatory terms.

It is possible. Anyone who remembers the clientelle of The Dolphin before the change , will I hope agree.

[Annie.]

Perhaps it could be both Rod? Maybe put on a few film nights etc, not taking it away from The Golden Lion of course.

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[Tim Lund]

The Windmill as a theatre is quite a nice idea, but realistically, you can only be talking about finding a use for the building which allows it to be used as a theatre, along with other uses at other times. If this was what we wanted, it would be necessary to engage constructively with the owner. Quite possibly they would not give you the time of day, but even then, it would be advisable to avoid rhetoric about wicked, unscrupulous, greedy landlords, because that created an atmosphere which will put off other landlords.

[marymck]

Perhaps it could be both Rod? Maybe put on a few film nights etc, not taking it away from The Golden Lion of course.

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It's done all those things in the past. Remember the Bollywood night? The landlady is very much up for doing stuff like that again. So if anyone wants to hold something there, do please get in touch.

There is music most Saturday nights btw - and always a very good house.

[Annie.]

Perhaps the likes of the Sydenham arts,music could be held there, I'm sure if a few minds was put together something positive could come out of it, it's a great space and should be used to bring pleasure to people not just boring cans of food etc, leave that to " down" the road.

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[Tim Lund]

Sadly Tim you THINK you know humanity. But perhaps you really should ask yourself how many times you are the only one marching in step?

As in other areas, my views are very mainstream, so I never felt I was the only one marching in step. But thank you all the same to JulietP, Parker and Dickp. I think Juliet's explanation of why I was the only one contesting your view quite accurate:

Anyone that disagrees with Mary's worldview = misinformed, misguided, lacking in humanity, spiteful and vilified.

No wonder everyone who disagrees has quietly slipped away, unwilling to be berated and scolded into submission.

If I don't slip away, it's for two broad reasons, I guess:

(1) I think the community actually cares more about more bread and butter issues than saving pubs - such as having somewhere to buy food, having places to live, and facilities for young children. That's what people should be campaigning about. I was brought up to vote for a particular (Labour) councillor because it was she who had helped get mains water supplied to the village where I lived; and

(2) I'm just interested in how people's efforts get diverted, and how we end up with Mary - and others - being identified as representatives of the community when what they do is so counterproductive. Watching it also provides a lot of evidence about humanity.

I'm also fairly thick-skinned.