leenewham wrote: I'd prefer it to have the opportunity to be a great pub (which from Mary's posts seems to be the case) than to be yet another supermarket which is the same brand as one a few minutes walk away.
I agree. There are so few communal spaces in Sydenham - an opportunity exists as long as the pub is still a pub. The Two Half's, not to everyone's taste, was a place where people could sit down and talk to other locals. These seem to be diminishing.
At the risk of irritating Rod Taylor and doubtless others, why do communal spaces have to be pubs? What's wrong with cafés, which are actually opening up in Sydenham Road, as in other High Streets? If we saw communal space as a priority, where people could sit down and talk to each other, are we actually losing it?
But this is about saving a community space that happens to be a pub. And as such - rather than coffee bars - one can stay a lot longer at a table than you can in a coffee bar! That's all some people can afford. Overstay your welcome in a coffee bar and someone will swiftly bring you a bill and make you feel uncomfortable till you leave your table.
The point is that Sainsbury's is not a community space. It is a supermarket. Hardly somewhere for a night out or somewhere to hold a wake.
If you want to save an important community space, one that is big enough to hold events - then the Windmill is one and it's the only one we have in this area - and I (and many others) think it should remain a community space..
Various points, and I'm going to skip finding the links, but will if anyone insists.
Elsewhere, Mary has said that if we lose the Windmill it will be lost forever. This make no sense to me. If a building can be converted from one use to another, what's to stop it being converted back? In areas where and at times when there is an unmet demand for pubs, they have been built, or other buildings have been converted into them. If pubs never come back, it will be because they are irredemably uncommercial - which may also be why you don't get chased up to finish your slow half of mild - because there's no better paying customers who want to use that space.
There are a stack of possible reasons why irredemaby uncommercial activities should be maintained; it's why local Councils try to find money to support community centres, where carers can come with small kids and socialise themselves. That's how I'd prefer Lewisham to be supporting the community.
Rod Taylor may think alcohol is essential to get true born Englishman or woman to drop his or her reserve, so I guess that makes me un-English. OTOH, the consumption of alcohol is unquestionably linked to various anti-social behaviours as well in some people, and is not actually very healthy, however enjoyable.
I'm sorry Mary, I do realise you mean well, but this is just nuts.
Tim Lund wrote:Various points, and I'm going to skip finding the links, but will if anyone insists.
Elsewhere, Mary has said that if we lose the Windmill it will be lost forever. This make no sense to me. If a building can be converted from one use to another, what's to stop it being converted back? In areas where and at times when there is an unmet demand for pubs, they have been built, or other buildings have been converted into them. If pubs never come back, it will be because they are irredemably uncommercial - which may also be why you don't get chased up to finish your slow half of mild - because there's no better paying customers who want to use that space.
There are a stack of possible reasons why irredemaby uncommercial activities should be maintained; it's why local Councils try to find money to support community centres, where carers can come with small kids and socialise themselves. That's how I'd prefer Lewisham to be supporting the community.
Rod Taylor may think alcohol is essential to get true born Englishman or woman to drop his or her reserve, so I guess that makes me un-English. OTOH, the consumption of alcohol is unquestionably linked to various anti-social behaviours as well in some people, and is not actually very healthy, however enjoyable.
I'm sorry Mary, I do realise you mean well, but this is just nuts.
Tim I'm sorry but you really need to look at the planning applications before you post. Sainsbury's are building extensions and generally trashing the building. This building WILL NOT be used as a pub (or any other social gathering space that might suit you should you ever venture this far up Kirkdale) if Sainsbury's get their way.
I know you're a latecomer to this subject Tim - but please don't try to divert this discussion and this campaign into these fruitless and frankly damaging asides. That really is nuts of you and I worry about your motive.
Of course if your motive is to provide comfort to Sainsbury's, then well done. They've been trying to divide the community from the word go and so they'll just love it that they have your support. Especially on a thread that exists for the sole purpose of directing people to the petition. But it's ill judged of you Tim, mean spirited and shows your lack of understanding of this, largely working class, community.
Tim
You are forgetting inertia - the task of building a pub back from a Sainsburys is a big one .
Your idea of " uncommercial" is nonsense . It's an entirely relative term - depending on whether a family run business and whether you live on premises.
Finally it's nonsense because it is a variable - there is no such thing as an uncommercial pub - as a building .
I think you are displaying an unfortunate "knowing best " outlook on this .
What is clear is that nobody "needs " a Sainsburys and that some people do need a local pub .
You are in effect campaigning for Sainsburys and I have no idea what your purpose is apart from to undermine Marymc .
Good evening
Nigel
Of course if your motive is to provide comfort to Sainsbury's, then well done. They've been trying to divide the community from the word go and so they'll just love it that they have your support. Especially on a thread that exists for the sole purpose of directing people to the petition. But it's ill judged of you Tim, mean spirited and shows your lack of understanding of this, largely working class, community.
Reducing numbers of people want to socialise in pubs, and there is no good reason why they should, when alternative places such as cafés are opening up. It's not mean spiritied to say that. There are far more worthwhile things to campaign for, such as getting the homes built for the sorts people being supported elsewhere on this Forum by fund raising efforts for charities such as Crisis at Christmas and Shelter.
Oh not another person telling me what to campaign for! Honestly Tim I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do with your time. But I'm a woman. I'm quite capable of doing more than one thing at a time. You go ahead and campaign for infilling every breathing space. And converting our social spaces to tiny flats. It won't impact your life But please do it on another thread. This is to point people to the windmill petition.
Nigel wrote:Tim
You are forgetting inertia - the task of building a pub back from a Sainsburys is a big one .
Your idea of " uncommercial" is nonsense . It's an entirely relative term - depending on whether a family run business and whether you live on premises.
Finally it's nonsense because it is a variable - there is no such thing as an uncommercial pub - as a building .
I think you are displaying an unfortunate "knowing best " outlook on this .
What is clear is that nobody "needs " a Sainsburys and that some people do need a local pub .
You are in effect campaigning for Sainsburys and I have no idea what your purpose is apart from to undermine Marymc .
Good evening
Nigel
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Nigel - the people who know best about being commercial or uncommercial are the accountants.
Nigel wrote:Tim
You are forgetting inertia - the task of building a pub back from a Sainsburys is a big one .
Your idea of " uncommercial" is nonsense . It's an entirely relative term - depending on whether a family run business and whether you live on premises.
Finally it's nonsense because it is a variable - there is no such thing as an uncommercial pub - as a building .
I think you are displaying an unfortunate "knowing best " outlook on this .
What is clear is that nobody "needs " a Sainsburys and that some people do need a local pub .
You are in effect campaigning for Sainsburys and I have no idea what your purpose is apart from to undermine Marymc .
Good evening
Nigel
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Nigel - the people who know best about being commercial or uncommercial are the accountants.
So why are you commenting Tim, if only the accountants know?
Nigel wrote:Tim
You are forgetting inertia - the task of building a pub back from a Sainsburys is a big one .
Your idea of " uncommercial" is nonsense . It's an entirely relative term - depending on whether a family run business and whether you live on premises.
Finally it's nonsense because it is a variable - there is no such thing as an uncommercial pub - as a building .
I think you are displaying an unfortunate "knowing best " outlook on this .
What is clear is that nobody "needs " a Sainsburys and that some people do need a local pub .
You are in effect campaigning for Sainsburys and I have no idea what your purpose is apart from to undermine Marymc .
Good evening
Nigel
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Nigel - the people who know best about being commercial or uncommercial are the accountants.
So why are you commenting Tim, if only the accountants know?
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Not only the accountants - I wrote that they are the ones who know best.
I make a point to listening to the opinion of those with practical experience.
So who has been telling you about the windmill's finances? Because I don't think you have been,listening to those who know best. You're way off course on this one Tim.
marymck wrote:So who has been telling you about the windmill's finances? Because I don't think you have been,listening to those who know best. You're way off course on this one Tim.
[ Post made via Mobile Device ]
Is he though?
Pubs are dying on a very large scale in the UK, the only way to survive is to appeal to a broader range of customers with money to burn which means food, kids, and Yuppies. If a pub has no way to appeal to a more affluent client base then it will close.
The working classes have been written off by the elites such as BoJo and have been told that if your IQ isn't at least 130 then you can "do one" as you are obviously disabled and doomed to the drudgery of holding a mop and pushing brooms.
What does this mean for the windmill public house? Unfortunately it means that it's target audience no longer has the money to drown their sorrows at such a devastating revaluation that they are stuck at the bottom rung of the socio-economic ladder, have no chance of social mobility and should go down to Ali's corner shop for a 6 pack of white lightning 10 B+H and score a £10 bag of super skunk, go back home to watch the enders on their 65" plasmas instead.
I am sure nobody on this forum has access to the accounts of the Windmill and what would it show anyway ?
This discussion has got too overheated and it really is simple - let those who want pubs to flourish/tick along support the Windmill - let those who want a Sainsburys take themselves off to any supermarket and buy some Pampers or whatever they crave .
Tim's economic theorising is clearly nonsense . If anyone thinks the arrival of a small crappy supermarket will help Sydenham then they really don't bring a lot to the party .
Mary is determined and committed and why anyone should seek to undermine this is beyond me . Some of the patent snobbery expressed in some posts is truly offensive to me and says all you need to know about why some are so determined that this pub should close .
Cycling home I remembered that only a few weeks ago I was talking to someone who'd just lost a whole lot of money in pursuit of her dream of running a pub, just a few yards from where she lived, and with the principal manager actually living above the pub. But it all ended in an ugly shouting match, and a big financial hit. That's the sort of reality I have in mind when I read people without actual experience saying how pubs can be profitable. I could also analyse the economics, but personal details are essentially the same story.
rod taylor wrote:Either way, a Sainsbury's adds absolutely nothing to an area which already has Lidl, Sainsbury's, Istanbul, Co-Operative, Tesco, Istanbul, PFC, Tesco, Costcutter, Tesco, Istanbul, Costcutter, Tesco, Tesco and Sainsbury's already.
You left out Ali's corner shop
It's a bit of a shame that we are seeing pubs close in favour of Sainsbury's etc but I think it's a sign of the times and as we change our habbits so the places which serve the communityy will change.
Could be worse though, they could be proposing another branch of William Hill's.
Cycling home I remembered that only a few weeks ago I was talking to someone who'd just lost a whole lot of money in pursuit of her dream of running a pub, just a few yards from where she lived, and with the principal manager actually living above the pub. But it all ended in an ugly shouting match, and a big financial hit. That's the sort of reality I have in mind when I read people without actual experience saying how pubs can be profitable. I could also analyse the economics, but personal details are essentially the same story.
Tim please read the posts. I have said over and over again the pub is profitable. A fact I have on very good authority. From somebody with far more experience than you or I could ever hope to muster. You are talking out of your hat on this one.
Plenty of people do run successful pubs, but they're not usually the inexperienced fantasists who are "pursuing a dream".
Tim!!!!!!!
You do see how ludicrous that comment is surely ?
Of course you met someone who failed to make a living running pub . Trouble is you could swap "pub" for any business you can name .
You are adding nothing to this discussion other than a sense of you know best .
Tell us how having Sainsburys will bring benefit to Sydenham - but a few basic rules first .
You can't say "it will bring employment " because pound for pound supermarkets employ fewer.
You can't mention " choice" because it is simply a limp and embarrassing line of thought .
You can't mention " something new in Sydenham " because it obviously isn't .
I estimate the sole benefit at around 4 nectar points but over to you professor
Good evening
Nig
Good points Nigel. But he could say it will force other businesses to close. So no more French bakers, no more Ram's, no more fruit and veg shop next door ... and no more hope if any other small independent retailer opening up shop in our patch.
At some level of rent I don't doubt the pub can be profitable, but why should landlords accept a lower rent when they can get a high rent from converting somewhere to another use? If they set the rent at the level a supermarket can pay, but not the Windmill, them the Windmill is not longer commercial. You either have to think the landlord is mad or bad. I suspect you think he is bad, and should be told by you, as a representative of the community, what rent he should set, so that your preferred use - a pub - can be profitable.
