michael wrote:There was a time when people would meet in person to discuss some of the problems of the world. Often such discussions would take place in lovely local pubs. Blaming on-line shopping for the death of the high street is fine, up to a point, but does the same not also apply to online discussion forums replacing our much beloved pubs? We should all stop posting on line and go out and have a drink.
OK - I'll risk irritating Michael by trying to comment reasonably on one of his comments. Here goes.
Can it be a coffee? I admit I'm a bit of an old fashioned Non-conformist, with a jaundiced view of the demon drink, but isn't the way things are moving, with various nice cafés opening up in Forest Hill - also Sydenham - evidence that our High Streets can still be the places for socialising, without having to save failing pubs? They may be 'much beloved', but not beloved enough.
Thank you for an a really interesting post .
What a shame that Sainsburys and the councils own parking policy were so damaging to your business .
A shame too that so many if us still want more Sainsburys - lets hope their craving for convenience is not allowed to spoil more shops like yours for the rest of us - again .
Would like to have visited your shop .
A very good evening
Nigel
michael wrote:There was a time when people would meet in person to discuss some of the problems of the world. Often such discussions would take place in lovely local pubs. Blaming on-line shopping for the death of the high street is fine, up to a point, but does the same not also apply to online discussion forums replacing our much beloved pubs? We should all stop posting on line and go out and have a drink.
OK - I'll risk irritating Michael by trying to comment reasonably on one of his comments. Here goes.
Can it be a coffee? I admit I'm a bit of an old fashioned Non-conformist, with a jaundiced view of the demon drink, but isn't the way things are moving, with various nice cafés opening up in Forest Hill - also Sydenham - evidence that our High Streets can still be the places for socialising, without having to save failing pubs? They may be 'much beloved', but not beloved enough.
It's not compulsory or even expected that one drink alcohol in pubs. The soft drinks in the windmull are probably much cheaper than a cafe.
Plus how long could one occupy a table in a cafe with just one drink? You can stay longer, for less cost in a pub. But of course what we need is variety.
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Last edited by marymck on 29 Nov 2013 19:26, edited 2 times in total.
I don't think much has changed in Sydenham. I have to admit I mostly go to Forest Hill and rarely shop in Sydenham Road.
Such a shame Lee when we have some great offers - from the only independent bookshop in Lewisham - Kirkdale Bookshop to the new Calabash of Culture. We have the pop up shops of N'Damus, Flash Trash and Bluebell Woods trading in the run up to Christmas. SEE3 are working on sustaining our monthly Sydenham market in 2014 plus the last year has seen a real change to the look of the high street with the Sydenham mosaic, shutter and wall art.
We are also working on the signage project and of course encouraging residents to shop local.
If people are driving then Girton Road car park is free (and has been for many years) to allow shoppers to stay longer to take full advantage of what is an improving offer in the high street.
Chris
I agree - having lived through some worse times in Sydenham and having seen improvements I probably have an optimism that Lee currently doesn't.
I am always reminded of the stirring words of general George S Patton as he lead his 7th army, and I paraphrase ," We are not at home to negative Nancy" .
One thing that is certain is that criticising the good shops we have , will do nothing to increase confidence on the part of our traders - I agree with Lee that that is where much of the opportunity lies , that said , I hope Lee can be tempted back from the delights of FH before then.
We have some awful shops , with a fearful disregard for the high street , both in content and signage . I realise an unpopular view , but if local authorities can't really impose these production values, and sadly I suspect they can't , then we should be more direct in our appraisals of such shops - basically , "your shop sign is a horrible backlit plastic mess, your window has been cracked for 3 years, etc etc I will be back if you sort it out". Not so radical , I certainly remember my parents' generation boycotting shops that were not clean and respectable and I am young enough to know what an Artic Monkey is .
But I do think we have to keep our enthusiasm up, show appreciation for the excellent traders we do have , and above all shop locally
A very good evening
Nigel
I have to say, I think the road improvements are brilliant! Especially the fact that they have allowed some spaces to park for a short while whilst you pop into a shop. I love the cobblers in the high street, he is brilliant but there have been many times when I haven't used him because I cannot park. Had new locks on my door recently and could park and get keys cut in 10 mins! I don't like walking around Penge or Sydenham as I don't feel safe so this is good for me. I think pubs are a great Idea but I won't step foot in one locally until they smarten up. Agree too the shop fronts look crap! It's a shame as the road and streets look fab now. I wish bromley would do the same for Penge, it has so much potential!
Nigel wrote:Thank you for an a really interesting post .
What a shame that Sainsburys and the councils own parking policy were so damaging to your business .
A shame too that so many if us still want more Sainsburys - lets hope their craving for convenience is not allowed to spoil more shops like yours for the rest of us - again .
Would like to have visited your shop .
A very good evening
Nigel
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Sorry Nigel it was not my business just a quote from the original owner from a great little record shop i used to visit on the high st in the 80s early 90s. (chris fro sugahill)
Oh I totally agree with the positive outlook on Sydenham, even though I recognise that much is still to be done (but so what, I can wait)
We've been here for 3 and 1/2 years. On arrival the main street was, and I quote myself, an absolute dump with the exception of PLC & Kirkdale bookshop. Now I look at it (and regardless of the fact that the floor stones will in time darken and stain) I see it gleaming and neat and bordering on the vibrant. Since then also there has been the glorious addition of Alexandra Nurseries (I know it is in Penge but 12 minutes walk for me so who cares), the re-vamped fabulous Co-Op and beautiful Sugahill, Cherry and Ice, the interesting African shop/café, the community library which has the most community feel of any library I have ever visited. There is the possibility of a "Literary Piazza" just outside it, there are the pocket squares which I (still) love and make the area feel calmer and less frenzied. There is work going on the fabulous building to become (eventually, I know) a café in Mayo Park. We have had a truly exciting Arts Festival this year (and a Halloween extravaganza the kids still rave about); we had meals in strange places and danced In stranger clubs. There is the new Station Approach and the fabulous little café with tables outside; no need to even mention the Portas project and how much it has given to the area. I could go on and on and on, bit will choose to finish off by mentioning the ghastly disaster of the Greyhound Pub, mitigated only by the sheer numbers of people who will not let go of it lightly.
And for all this, I am truly grateful.
Overall, if you asked people what they thought of Sydenham Road now and Sydenham Road 6 years ago when i first got here, I expect the reaction will be very similar. That's what I mean by Sydenham not having changed much. I'm not saying nothing has changed and we have some great local businesses and as you know I've always been supportive of SEE3, even if I don't agree with everything. I think it's the most important thing to happen in Sydenham for years.
I also agree, Kirkdale Books is brilliant. I doubt you will find anyone who has used them that will say otherwise. We used them when we bought the children's books for Sydenham library so we supported two local institutions. But they were here when I got here. So was the Blue Mountain Cafe, the Dolphin and Sugahill (just), all of which we like and have used, but not recently for one good reason stated later.
Flash trash is brilliant. But it's on it's own. Shops like these need other similar shops surrounding them. Like in Dartmouth Road or Church Road in CP. I wish them well, but it never seems that busy, which is a shame. A great business and lovely people, I just wish it had some company.
The monthly market is great and we have talked about this. A visit to Feast in West Norwood would show how this can evolve and what it can be. We discussed how the market could stretch down the high street with a variety of stalls bunched together so we have a food part, a craft part etc to encourage footfall down the high street. I can still introduce you to one of the directors of Feast if you want, as we have already discussed.
Girton Road Car Park is great that it's free. Hopefully it will remain so and I think we are all thankful that you have fought for this. Hopefully signage will be improved. The pocket squares have potential, but hopefully will be used for more than just once a month markets and it's shame he detailing of the landscaping, furniture and street lamps wasn't properly considered.
Trattoria is great. Again we support them locally and genuinely love them as a business and people. Our son had his first birthday party there (Raff was great). Wellbeing is a fantastic local asset. I get my hair cut here, pop into Mustis for stuff you can't get anywhere else and use the Co-operative. The Bathhouse in Bell Green is a genuine treasure.
But as a dad, with a small baby, I don't feel particularly comfortable in the Dolphin any more (much as I like the place, it just isn't somewhere to spend time with small kids), and the cafes here are awkward to use with a toddler who doesn't want to sit still for more than 47 seconds. That's why we generally go to Deli Nene in Beckenham or the Montage in FH. There are no shops with toys or gifts for kids in Sydenham. There are in Forest Hill. Gypsy Hill has a fantastic local pub with a great garden in the summer. Plus, when we go out, we want a treat. It's not that often, we want to feel special, we want to ensure our hard earned cash gives us a good experience. Does anyone know who many businesses in Sydenham have baby changing facilities for instance (that would be handy to include in a local directory)?
There has been a lot of hard work on the high street, many many hours of time given by volunteers (thousands of hours in total) but somehow we need to turn this into something long term and sustainable. Getting more traders engaged is key to this, but I fear this may be rather difficult!
By the way Chris, what is happening with the signage in Sydenham? It was a while ago I gave the presentation about this to the See3 group. We also talked about matching local businesses with local artists and designers for shop window displays so artists get free publicity, shops get great looking windows and Sydenham overall feels better during the most important shopping season. Is this down to happen?
I think the point is, if any of us lived elsewhere, would we venture to Sydenham in the way people venture to Crystal Palace, Beckenham, East Dulwich or Forest Hill from other areas. I'm not sure I would. I'd miss the odd shop, but would there be enough to pull me back? I'm not so sure to be completely honest.
I'm sure I'm going to be flamed by some for this post. But I sense that deep down there may be a nod of agreement with what I'm trying to say: Businesses need to earn our trade. Just like my business needs to. I don't get hand outs or support for business. I need to win it. The businesses that stand out for me are the ones where the owner genuinely love what they do. It's not just a living for them. As such they go the extra mile, make you feel special and do more than just 'sell stuff'. They make you love them. We need more businesses like them: business to love in our high streets.
leenewham wrote:
I'm sure I'm going to be flamed by some for this post. But I sense that deep down there may be a nod of agreement with what I'm trying to say: Businesses need to earn our trade. Just like my business needs to. I don't get hand outs or support for business. I need to win it. The businesses that stand out for me are the ones where the owner genuinely love what they do. It's not just a living for them. As such they go the extra mile, make you feel special and do more than just 'sell stuff'. They make you love them. We need more businesses like them: business to love in our high streets.
Just maybe you expect a little too much Lee i am in Sydenham everyday and there are some lovely people, business owners, who i think do a great job and do care about their businesses & customers without them the high st would be worse than it is.Little things like reading this http://southeastlondoncafes.blogspot.co ... enham.html that make it really worth while and a realisation that you are doing something right & there is some 'Love' out there.
Eagle wrote:Well said Maria and I agree the Greyhound should now be pulled down.
The building round it have overwhelmed it and it would be totally out of place.
I think Maria is saying that she is glad people are standing up for the Greyhound and want it to be kept, not pulled down.
We desperately need another pub. And we need it soon with the council's support. Good pubs bring good trade to an area, and the Dolphin could do with some competition so it ups its game too in my opinion.
Antic have recently opened the Constitutional Club in Catford, with full support from Lewisham Council. They say on their site they have done little decorating, keeping it how it was and quite shabby. It sounds ace. Why can't similar happen with the Regency Club round the corner from the Greyhound? Why can't the council get their acts together and get the Greyhound back on its feet too?
We need these things to make people come down the hill, down Kirkdale, up from Penge, we need it to become a destination, rather than people walking the other way to the plethora of pubs in Palace, or the Post in Forest Hill.
That was absolutely what I was saying, GMan, thank you.
And from what I heard in Assembly today there is still hope. A good pub in Sydenham? that's a fantastic thought as is the prospect of that amazing wall with all the pictures of Sydenham people: it must be driving Lee N. absolutely mad all this delay and debacle - after all the work he has put into it!
