Traffic in the High Road

[Rachael]

What's the sequencing between the two pedestrian crossings? As a driver, I am struggling to think of a time when I have had to stop at both. It's usually one or the other (usually the one nearest the roundabout). If they are sequenced so that there is a significant gap between each being on red, turning one or the other off probably won't make any difference.

[perryman]

I agree that the pedestrian crossing by the roundabout should be hooded.
There probably was a good case for it before the council cocked up the builds of the Sainsbury's retail unit and the Greyhound. As it is, this is not going to be a busy route for pedestrians for the foreseeable future.

In return, tfl need to adjust the timings of the crossing next to it, as on its current setting of a ~75 second wait, a good many pedestrians assume that the lights are broken. And effectively they are.

[biscuitman1978]

I agree that the pedestrian crossing by the roundabout should be hooded.
There probably was a good case for it before the council cocked up the builds of the Sainsbury's retail unit and the Greyhound. As it is, this is not going to be a busy route for pedestrians for the foreseeable future.

I don't understand your reasoning. If it's not a busy crossing, people surely won't use it much and it won't cause delays to traffic (other people's view, not mine), so what's the point in hooding it? Surely better to allow even a small number of people to cross in safety than to leave them at the mercy of a busy road?

[Rachael]

The logistics of traffic flow are not always obvious. I understand how traffic jams build up on motorways, with miles and miles of empty road ahead, but it still makes my head hurt.

So, to Sydenham Road. The crossing nearest the roundabout appears to be the busiest - as a driver this is most often where I am stopped. If we say this is replacement for the old zebra crossing, why the delay? Because the cars are held a little longer and there is no option to have pedestrians and cars trickle through alternately. As most people seemed to think the zebra crossing on the bridge was dangerous, it had to be moved. Did it have to be changed to traffic lights, though? Would another zebra have done the job better? I don't know. But I do think the problem is not TWO sets of lights, but one zebra crossing being replaced by one set of lights.

The second set of crossings is linked to the cycle route that emerges from Venner Road and continues up Silverdale (or so someone here has said). It is certainly less often to be found on red, in my experience.

Chris Best did say the light phasing would be reviewed once the project was finished, so there is some tweaking to come yet.

[Manwithaview1]

The logistics of traffic flow are not always obvious. I understand how traffic jams build up on motorways, with miles and miles of empty road ahead, but it still makes my head hurt.

So, to Sydenham Road. The crossing nearest the roundabout appears to be the busiest - as a driver this is most often where I am stopped. If we say this is replacement for the old zebra crossing, why the delay? Because the cars are held a little longer and there is no option to have pedestrians and cars trickle through alternately. As most people seemed to think the zebra crossing on the bridge was dangerous, it had to be moved. Did it have to be changed to traffic lights, though? Would another zebra have done the job better? I don't know. But I do think the problem is not TWO sets of lights, but one zebra crossing being replaced by one set of lights.

The second set of crossings is linked to the cycle route that emerges from Venner Road and continues up Silverdale (or so someone here has said). It is certainly less often to be found on red, in my experience.

Chris Best did say the light phasing would be reviewed once the project was finished, so there is some tweaking to come yet.

A Spanish girl was killed a few years ago where the lights are on the eastern side of Sydenham Station.

[Rachael]

That's sad, MWAV. Not sure how it relates to my post, though.

[hairybuddha]

Now I know everyone is going to groan at this...... But the elephant in the room here is that you can fiddle around with light phasings and placement of crossings all you like but the fundamental problem is too many people are choosing to drive along Sydenham High St at certain times of the day. The only real long term solution is to discourage this. Either soft measures like improving bus routes or hard measures like road closures and mode filters. The liveability of the public space, and the movement of vulnerable road users (pedestrians and cyclists) should be the top priority. Not "traffic flow".

[Rachael]

I tend to agree, HB, and I say that as someone who drives on Sydenham Road regularly. At peak times I might chose to go another way to get home (through Forest Hill, for example), but if we all do that, it just displaces the problem.

I would also say that patience is a virtue. If I drive at peak times, I have to expect some delays. Traffic approaching Cobbs Corner has ALWAYS backed up at peak times. Now it backs up a little more. Is it the end of the world?

[hairybuddha]

Absolutely - "If only the people complaining about the traffic would stop choosing to be in it" as someone very wise once said on Twitter, or something.

[stuart]

For the umpteenth time I have to remind drivers that pedestrians didn't want these traffic lights. They wanted the zebra crossing moved. That's what Lewisham/TfL were told clearly in the consultation. They chose to ignore it.

Result: upset pedestrians who can't cross at will (but maintaining traffic flow by filtering and no dead time) and fuming drivers. Suggesting the controlled pedestrian crossing be suspended/removed or the phasing made even more challenging for pedestrians is, surely, the wrong way to go.

If people cannot walk conveniently and safely cross the road - what are you encouraging them to do? Yep, a further shift in transport mode to the one and only one responsible for this problem.

Lemmings have nothing on some human behaviours.

Stuart

[Rachael]

That was partly what I was trying to say in my earlier post - the zebra crossing needed to be moved, but it could have been retained as a zebra and not lights, as is very common on a lot of roundabout entry / exit roads.

[stuart]

So what do we do? Campaign for the lights to be replaced by a zebra as on the other two major exits from the island?

It would make things much better for pedestrians and the shops around the Bookshop (plus if and when Sainsburys opens). It would be hard to make things worse for motorists so, surely, it must be a net gain?

I hope we won't end up with people defending rather than admitting a bad decision.

Stuart

[sarahsyd]

I believe that the new crossings are a huge improvement, not simply as it makes my life pushing a buggy up and down the High Street easier and safer, but because the changes generally improve the streetscape.

Kirkdale (the bookshop etc) previously felt isolated and the new crossing has drawn it in to the main street, and will also be important for those using the new pub and retail units (eventually). The new crossings make the high street a more pleasant place to be - it all feels more integrated - and hopefully will encourage more footfall and later new shops and tenants.

With the new squares and trees the street will begin to feel more like a destination and somewhere to linger, rather than a place everyone hurries through at great speed.

I lived in North East London for a long while and it does baffle me why so many more people use cars here. This isn't an outer suburb - we are in zone 3. Of course there are occasions when a car is necessary but many people use a car as a default. My guess is that we haven't yet reached the tipping point, but now that the area is so well connected and the traffic is worsening, perhaps there will be an improvement. I hope so!

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[stuart]

I find the opposite Sarah. Before I could cross the road immediately and safely. Now I have to wait at lights and that feels like a long time. I am often tempted to dash across through the stationary traffic hoping it doesn't suddenly move which is not safe. If I wait I find the way blocked by traffic illegally straddling the crossing. Who are often annoyed at being held at the lights for pedestrians like me who have already hoofed it.

Moving the zebra there would have been the best of all worlds. A (relatively) safe, speedy and convenient way for people to connect the shopping units together. With the other two zebra crossing the coming of Sainsburys could have revived the whole of Cobbs Corner.

Instead of what we have ... am I alone on this?

Stuart

[Rachael]

Sarah - would you be happy with the new lights being replaced with zebra crossings? I agree that the placement is good and brings the shops on that side of the bridge into the main thoroughfare.

[sarahsyd]

I think so, yes. Though zebras are sometimes ignored, particularly in heavy traffic. Weaving between cars isn't very appealing with a buggy. Perhaps if just one of these crossing points were a zebra, it would help?

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[hairybuddha]

Instead of what we have ... am I alone on this?

Nope, completely agree. As ever public utility is sacrificed on the altar of "smoothing traffic flow".

[MisterDis]

Its always seemed to me that any attempt to manage traffic using traffic lights is doomed to fail. Is it really possible to manage the complexity of traffic flow with a control system ? I wonder what would happen if all traffic lights were removed, and replaced with mini roundabouts. Perhaps, like the 'water analogy' quoted earlier, traffic would 'find' its own easiest route..?

[hairybuddha]

I can't imagine that removing all traffic lights would be a good solution for vulnerable road users. But I suppose if it "smooths traffic flow" then what's a few dozen extra miserable, painful, lonely deaths by the side of the road between friends? I've got a number for City Hall if you want it.

[Eagle]

Well said Hairy B.