Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

[Eagle]

Dear Sainsbury
Thanks you for coming onto the forum and explaining your actions and thoughts.

Personally I believe there are already plenty of convenience stores locally , but I know others disagree.

I appreciate the owners say no pub would be economic there , but again many disagree. Perhaps the right people have not been given the opportunity to succeed.

You have not mentioned LBL's policy of not letting pubs become other businesses.

As a community building a pub would be the best solution , however I know many do not agree.

Over to Mary.

[hairybuddha]

*popcorn at the ready*

[marymck]

Sainsburys invited representatives of the Sydenham Society to a meeting, which took place on Friday 13th September. Representatives of CAMRA and local business and residents also attended. We all shared the same concerns and regret the threat to a vital social space.

Unfortunately, we were unable to discuss Sainsburys six planning applications in detail, as Sainsburys had not brought a set of the plans or a laptop on which to view online. I requested an A3 set of the plans, which were promised, but which I am still awaiting.

Sainsburys stated they had affixed a planning notice to a bus stop, using tie wraps and placed below the bus timetables. I.e. about two feet above ground level. I used the bus stop myself on the evening of 31st August. There was no evidence of a notice at that time. It may be relevant that no tie wraps are attached to the bus stop and that neither customers to whom I have spoken, nor members of staff, have any recollection if seeing planning notices displayed. We have been checking every day as it was obviously in our interests that the notices be displayed promptly and prominently.

Nevertheless, two planning notices were put up at 16.30 hrs on Friday 13th September. The consultation period starts from that time. SydSoc is advising people to send their comments to Lewisham planning department as soon as possible, but no later than 27th September, despite the fact that the planning notices displayed on 13th September give a deadline of 12th September.

I am happy to report that these notices have been correctly affixed to the windows of the premises.

We have requested that Sainsburys, St Gabriel's Properties and Lewisham planning hold a meeting at the Windmill to present their plans and answer questions of neighbours and customers.

In the past year alone, the Windmill has hosted ten funerals, many birthday parties, Christenings. wedding receptions, 1st Holy Communion celebrations and many meetings and other events. Sainsburys noted how busy the Windmill was when putting up the notices on 13 th September.

We have seen no evidence that the pub had been marketed as claimed, nor that it is not making a profit.

We have requested evidence in support of these claims from St Gabriel's Properties, from Sainsburys, and from LBL.

Thus far, we have had no response.

I personally know at least one publican is seriously interested in taking on the lease of the Windmill.

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[Eagle]

Good Luck Mary. The last thing we need is yet another convenience store.

Logic tells us there is only so much to be spent in convenience stores in Kirkdale.

There are two larger Sainsbury's quite close by.

[JRobinson]

From what Mary says about how busy the pub is, it seems very unlikely that the business is unsustainable as a pub. However we have heard from Dr G who says that the pub is making a loss, and so they are changing use. it seems clear to me that he's only interested in profit, and the amount of money required to spend on upgrades for the pub by him/his property company are more than he's interested in spending, and he know's he'll get good money, and long term tennents, from JS. It seems terribly unfair for the landlord not to spend money on the necessary renovations, and basic upkeep issues, in order to force the current landlord to not be able to run the pub at the best of his ability, just so that the landlord can than have 'proof' that a pub is not viable in order to bolster his campaign to the planners for change of use to Supermarket.

[marymck]

Very true JR. There's also the issue that we don't believe that Lewisham saw any "proof" that the pub wasn't making a profit. The owner can claim black is white as long as Lewisham don't require him to produce evidence. This lack of access to the accounts of course also makes it impossible for a business plan to be put together by the person who does want to take on the lease and run it as a pub and social gathering space.

[hairybuddha]

Is there a statutory requirement for the owners to produce accounts for their business before giving the lease to Sainsbury's? I don't know the answer, I'm genuinely curious.

[Tim Lund]

Is there a statutory requirement for the owners to produce accounts for their business before giving the lease to Sainsbury's? I don't know the answer, I'm genuinely curious.

Who to produce whose accounts for whom? In this case the suggestion is that the owners produce evidence that the business was unprofitable, but the relevant business is not theirs, but their tenant's, and the only evidence the owner can be sure to have about their profitability is whether the tenant has paid them the rent. I can't see how there could possibly be a statutory requirement to produce accounts.

[Tim Lund]

This lack of access to the accounts of course also makes it impossible for a business plan to be put together by the person who does want to take on the lease and run it as a pub and social gathering space.

This can't be right, because there must be plenty of times that a business has successfully converted premises previously not a pub into a pub, and on those occasions, there can have been no such accounts on which to base the successful business plan. A case in point will be Antic setting up Sylvan Post.

[hairybuddha]

Who to produce whose accounts for whom?

Well I suppose my question is: "On what basis is mary asking the owners (not the tenants) to produce accounts for the business?"

And if they don't have to produce accounts for the perusal of the public then why the hell would they bother for the benefit of of a bunch of saddos on a community forum?

Turns out there were two questions

[marymck]

Is there a statutory requirement for the owners to produce accounts for their business before giving the lease to Sainsbury's? I don't know the answer, I'm genuinely curious.

Who to produce whose accounts for whom? In this case the suggestion is that the owners produce evidence that the business was unprofitable, but the relevant business is not theirs, but their tenant's, and the only evidence the owner can be sure to have about their profitability is whether the tenant has paid them the rent. I can't see how there could possibly be a statutory requirement to produce accounts.

Only the owners have the accounts, because the business is theirs. They employ a pub manager. There is no tenant. The last tenant's lease expired I believe in 2011.

Lewisham Council refused SydSoc and CAMRA's application to list the Windmill as an Asset of Community Value because the owner claimed that the pub was unprofitable. I believe Lewisham accepted the owner's word for this. Certainly requests for evidence have fallen on deaf ears.

Because no one has been able to find out what rent the owners would charge, or the restrictions they may put on the lease, it is of course impossible for anyone to put together a realistic business plan.

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[marymck]

Who to produce whose accounts for whom?

Well I suppose my question is: "On what basis is mary asking the owners (not the tenants) to produce accounts for the business?"

And if they don't have to produce accounts for the perusal of the public then why the hell would they bother for the benefit of of a bunch of saddos on a community forum?

Turns out there were two questions

Actually HB we have not asked them to produce accounts for the benefits of you "saddos on a community forum".(Though if that's how you view yourself, I'm surprised you want to post here.)

We've asked them to produce them for Lewisham Council and for the purposes of fairness and transparency in the legal process of the application to make the Windmill an Asset of Community Value. Which if successful means a six month moratorium to enable a tenant or purchaser to step forward with a credible business plan to run the pub as a pub.

I certainly neither asked nor expected the owners to publish their accounts on a public website.

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[hairybuddha]

Thanks Mary. So your three paragraphs eventually boil down to an answer which is: "No, there is no statutory requirement for them to produce accounts".

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[marymck]

Thanks Mary. So your three paragraphs eventually boil down to an answer which is: "No, there is no statutory requirement for them to produce accounts".

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No HB. I don't know if there is a statutory requirement to produce accounts when, as in this case, there is a process that the UK government has set out when local councils are going through the process of dealing with an application to make a building an Asset of Community Value. The Act is not that easy for a lay person to understand, particularly when trying to earn a living, having limited time and having email after email ignored by Lewisham and relevant ward councillors.

I don't know if Lewisham saw evidence or just accepted the word of the owner. As so far, Lewisham aren't answering that question, some might suspect the latter.

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[Tim Lund]

The Act is not that easy for a lay person to understand, particularly when trying to earn a living, having limited time and having email after email ignored by Lewisham and relevant ward councillors.

Which ward is the Windmill in?

[marymck]

Forest Hill ward. And therein lies the problem.

The last Forest Hill assembly was back in May. At that time we didn't know the Windmill was on the market and under threat. Shortly after, the blue licensing application notices went up. I mentioned this briefly at the Sydenham Assembly in June. Though Chris hadn't wanted me to speak, as this was the "wrong" ward, we were at the TNG centre, so very much in the Windmill's natural catchment area. People were audibly shocked at the threat.

I've emailed the three Forest Hill ward councillors. No response from two of them and the third deleted my emails without reading them. I've actually given up copying them in on things now. They're simply not interested in this border of their ward ... except at election time.

I've spoken to Alex Feakes about the Windmill. No help there and I've since found out he was a bit Jesuitical, to put it politely, with the truth on that occasion.

There is not another Forest Hill ward assembly until 8th Oct. By that time Lewisham will have made their decision on the fate of the Windmill.

May to October is, in my opinion an unacceptably long period between assemblies. There have been two Sydenham ward assemblies during that period.

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[marianne]

Anyone else receive a letter from Sainsbury's this morning to inform residents of Kirkdale of their plans to open a new convenience shop? They say that current planning law does not require planning permission to change the use of the premises but they have submitted the necessary planning applications to allow them to operate the unit as a convenience shop. They have also confirmed that they were approached by the owner of the pub.

[gillyjp]

*popcorn at the ready*

I've lagged behind a bit in this particular thread - probably because it got rather boring, but having just caught up all I can say is:

HB - How's the popcorn going?

[Nigel]

Mary
I have no practical help to offer but I do wish you well.
You are up against the convenience brigade evidently - those whose lives are so rich and full that they can't feed themselves without recourse to these crappy little Sainsburys convenience shops.
The inevitable hilarious jibe from HairyButtocks or whatever she calls herself , I hope will not deter you .
I can only add what I said about the Greyhound , you can't have a decent pub without there being a pub there in the first place , and it is clear that you and many others like the Windmill . I hope you are successful in your campaign because you deserve to be .
A very good morning
Nigel

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[gillyjp]

We are immediate neighbours to the ill-fated Greyhound and have suffered much because of the ‘do-gooders’ trying to save a pub that quite frankly is dead in the water. Because of these ‘well meaning’ self-righteous people we have an eyesore at the Gateway to Sydenham. And it doesn’t look like getting fixed any time soon.

For the sake of the community I don’t want to see another part of Sydenham going down that same route. Mary has stated that she is concerned for people’s jobs. Sainsburys will create a lot more jobs than 2 or 3 part time bar people working in a pub that cannot pay its way.

I wonder how many of those campaigning for the pub to stay open actually drink in the pub on a regular basis or would do so once it is ‘saved’. Perhaps Mary should be channelling her energies into ensuring that the local pubs that are open and thriving, have disabled access. Or perhaps getting the money together to actually run the pub themselves.