Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill

[mikej]

I too have only just caught up with this thread, and I too hope it can be saved. Hope others will support Mary's solid campaign to keep it going.

[richpickings]

I won't miss the Windmill. As someone who has had cause to complain to the police and local counsellors about fighting outside it and who has to put up with loud music and the drunken antics of its customers at chucking out time, I would be pleased to see it close.
It is a miserable, depressing place and whilst I am not sure we need a Sainsbury's, I would prefer that to the pub.

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[richpickings]

Ha ha
*Councillors*

Perhaps I should see a local counsellor!

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[marymck]

I won't miss the Windmill. As someone who has had cause to complain to the police and local counsellors about fighting outside it and who has to put up with loud music and the drunken antics of its customers at chucking out time, I would be pleased to see it close.
It is a miserable, depressing place and whilst I am not sure we need a Sainsbury's, I would prefer that to the pub.

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I'm sorry you've experienced problems Rich. Yours is not the experience of someone I know who lives immediately opposite and, speaking personally, I don't find it a miserable, depressing place. It's quite cheerful and friendly actually. It's just the decor that's depressing. Please can you let me know when this happened and the police incident number and then I'll look into it?

Thanks

Mary

[marymck]

Just catching up on this.

What are CAMRA doing to help and have you spoken to Lewisham Council? I thought they were the first to bring in rules stopping pubs from changing to Supermarkets with the Catford Bridge Tavern?

How does one object and on what grounds as I would like to.

Thanks

G-Man

Hi G-Man

Sorry for the delay in posting ...

In order to object to Sainsbury's planning applications ...

• Objections have to be made in writing or in an email
• Must include your name and postal address
• Must include The Windmill’s address, which is125-131 Kirkdale, SE26 4QJ
• Must include the reference number that relates to your objection - or simply list all six numbers, which is probably safest and is what I'm going to do. If you don't want to you don't have to list the descriptions of all six - just the reference numbers is sufficient.

• DC/13/84358 | Alterations to the front, including the installation of a new shopfront and customer entrance door
  
  DC/13/84359 | The construction of a two storey extension to the rear of to accommodate goods lift and emergency stairs
  
  DC/13/84356 | The installation of an ATM to the shopfront
  
  DC/13/84357 | The display of two internally-illuminated fascia signs, one externally-illuminated projecting sign and one non-illuminated panel sign
  
  DC/13/84360 | The installation of plant equipment on the roof
  
  DC/13/84355 | To allow the hours of operation for the retail unit to be 07.00-23.00 (previously consented hours 08.00-23.00)

You need to state that you’re OBJECTING to the plans and give a reason. Sadly, it’s not enough under the law just to say you want The Windmill to remain a pub. Though do please say so – it can’t hurt!

But it would really help if you can also think of other, practical reasons, why these particular plans don't work. The more people that can study these, the more likelihood we can spot things that others may not have noticed.

For example, I personally think there will be:

• loss of amenity and an important community gathering space
• damage to the amenities of residents caused by noise (e.g. from deliveries and noisy plant on the roof), smell, access to the rear of properties, problems with parking
• issues with street drinkers. (At present, the pub licensee has a responsibility if people leave the pub intoxicated and cause problems. Sainsbury's will not have this responsibility. Their responsibilities as licensee cease when a customer leaves the premises.)
• not enough space for wheelie bins and trollies
• highway safety including the need for customer parking and unloading delivery vans - unloading at the back will be particularly dangerous, given the narrowness of Willow Lane, the fact there is a footpath on only one side and that children use this as a short cut to and from school. (I understand there was a near miss accident just last week involving a reversing Tesco delivery vehicle. The proposed Sainsbury's delivery space has more sight line problems and a much more difficult approach than the Tesco delivery space. It can only be approached by reversing down Willow Way, around the sharp corner into the rear access road and reversing down the access road, where a tight manoeuvre is required to slot into a very narrow space.)


If enough people object, the proposals get judged at a meeting of a Planning Committee, which we can all attend - though of course you no one has to attend. If we don't get enough objections, the Planning Case Officer decides. The Planning Case Officer is called Hugo Marchant. I think he's new.

Objections should be sent to:
The Planning Department
Laurence House
Catford Road, SE6 4RU
Email: planning@lewisham.gov.uk

You might also want to send a copy to your local councillor.

Still no site notice, by the way!

---------------------------------------------------------------

You asked about CAMRA. They are being enormously supportive. They have lobbied both the Council and Sainsbury's CEO.

We are hoping to start an online petition, the link for which will be posted here and on the CAMRA and SydSoc websites.

You may know that there was a petition in the pub. Many people signed, but the owners took the petition away without permission. We have not been able to retrieve it. A further (albeit smaller) petition was hurriedly put together and Cllr Liam Curran presented it to the Mayor and Council.

These plans by Sainsbury's and St Gabriel Properties fly in the face of Lewisham's pub policy that Liam Curran worked so hard on producing. I think this will be a test case and that if The Windmill is lost it is hard to see how the pub policy can survive.

So please - everyone - if The Windmill goes, your local could be next. A precedent will have been set and it will be much, much harder to save other pubs in the future.

[caseyref]

• DC/13/84358 | Alterations to the front, including the installation of a new shopfront and customer entrance door
  
  DC/13/84359 | The construction of a two storey extension to the rear of to accommodate goods lift and emergency stairs
  
  DC/13/84356 | The installation of an ATM to the shopfront
  
  DC/13/84357 | The display of two internally-illuminated fascia signs, one externally-illuminated projecting sign and one non-illuminated panel sign
  
  DC/13/84360 | The installation of plant equipment on the roof
  
  DC/13/84355 | To allow the hours of operation for the retail unit to be 07.00-23.00 (previously consented hours 08.00-23.00)

You need to state that you’re OBJECTING to the plans and give a reason. Sadly, it’s not enough under the law just to say you want The Windmill to remain a pub. Though do please say so – it can’t hurt!

But it would really help if you can also think of other, practical reasons, why these particular plans don't work. The more people that can study these, the more likelihood we can spot things that others may not have noticed.

For example, I personally think there will be:

• loss of amenity and an important community gathering space
• damage to the amenities of residents caused by noise (e.g. from deliveries and noisy plant on the roof), smell, access to the rear of properties, problems with parking
• issues with street drinkers. (At present, the pub licensee has a responsibility if people leave the pub intoxicated and cause problems. Sainsbury's will not have this responsibility. Their responsibilities as licensee cease when a customer leaves the premises.)
• not enough space for wheelie bins and trollies
• highway safety including the need for customer parking and unloading delivery vans - unloading at the back will be particularly dangerous, given the narrowness of Willow Lane, the fact there is a footpath on only one side and that children use this as a short cut to and from school. (I understand there was a near miss accident just last week involving a reversing Tesco delivery vehicle. The proposed Sainsbury's delivery space has more sight line problems and a much more difficult approach than the Tesco delivery space. It can only be approached by reversing down Willow Way, around the sharp corner into the rear access road and reversing down the access road, where a tight manoeuvre is required to slot into a very narrow space.)

I am a local resident and find the obsession with Pubs in Kirkdale quite strange but everyone has their own reasons for wanting to protect pubs but I find that this would be much stronger case IF there was a lack of alternatives in the area BUT this is not the case as being in the lovely Kirkdale we have 2 others 1 being Foxes & the other being the Bricklayers Arms which from experience and observance seem to have less trouble and excessively drunk individuals leaving...

Can I ask what logical objection you can give on the above and the reasons you tarnish all retailers with the same brush?

- Installation of an ATM -more cashpoints are welcomed by everyone and are an asset to a community (especially when a local one is out of order or you dont want a load of £5 notes)

- damage & smell - sorry but again I fail to see what smell comes from any Sainsbury's, CoOp or Tesco local I go into/has a bin nearby and damage from noise could be caused by any delivery to the pub - Sainsbury's could have a delivery restriction put in place as so to not be early morning or during peak traffic.

- alcohol - i see lots of drunk (and these are unmerry - more violent) leaving the pub and again due to bad experiences i no longer wait at the bus stop outside the pub in the evening - all retailers have Under 25 tests from the local authority and also have tests on if they sell alcohol to drunk people which could lead to them losing their licence.

- No Sainsbury's locals have trollies and wheelie bins would be placed where they are at present wouldn't they - or do you know Sainsbury's plans on storage of these bins?

- Highway safety - all lorries can be reported to sainsbury's and i presume that they would only send a small lorry (not the size tesco send) which when Willow Way depot was open could easily deal with in the past - so what has changed?

As I say this is all from personal experience from living above a Sainsbury's local from its opening through to dealing with a few niggly issues that i had with the company but found the store & area managers were really helpful and so was the various careline people i spoke to.

Just remember not every retailer is like Tesco and what i saw from my high street was that more shops opened around the Sainsbury's and the place improved considerably.

I REALLY don't want Kirkdale to stay as bad as it is now and the upper row of shops now need redevelopment and it would be great to kick it off with a shop that I would use as an alternative to Tesco as Costcutter is horrendous now and Londis is as bad as its ever been!

[Dr Gabriel]

I have owned the Windmill pub since 2004 and would like to respond to the posting on 8 September 2013 titled
“Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill” by marymck

I feel it is necessary to clarify my position in light of the incorrect information in this posting and to provide some background to the history of the site.

First of all, I would like to say that contrary to the claims in this posting we have at no point said that Sainsbury's had withdrawn their plans. We remain fully supportive of the agreement that we have with Sainsbury's to lease the pub from St Gabriel's Properties. Sainsbury’s confirmed to us last week that they put up the site notices outside the Windmill pub on 31 August after receiving copies from Lewisham Council that week.

I understand that some local residents do not wish to see the pub close and I would like to make it clear that this is not a decision that we have made lightly. However, we cannot carry on or sustain running the premises as a pub as it has been making a huge loss for some time now. Recent tenants have not been able to make the business a success and we are currently running the pub on a loss. This is not sustainable and we will sadly need to close the pub by the end of the year.

By way of background, the property has been extensively marketed since 2008 and our agents approached pub operators as well as other types of occupiers such as children’s day nurseries, gyms, bars and restaurants. This resulted in no interest despite our efforts to find a suitable occupier. Sainsbury’s were approached by our agents and we were relieved to exchange contracts with them this summer.

The agreement with Sainsbury’s is the only viable option we have after many years of trying to sell or lease the pub. Irrespective of whether Sainsbury’s applications are successful we will have no choice but to close and board up the pub. Given the difficulty we have experienced in finding a tenant for the property, it is highly likely the property would remain vacant for a significant period of time. This would surely be detrimental to the vitality of this part of Sydenham and encourage anti-social behaviour. We strongly believe that Sainsbury’s would make a good tenant and would bring major benefits to Kirkdale and local residents.

I hope that this helps to clarify matters for you.


Dr Gabriel Christodoulou
St Gabriel's Properties Ltd

[parker]

This has made my evening...!

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[marymck]

I have owned the Windmill pub since 2004 and would like to respond to the posting on 8 September 2013 titled
“Re: Deadline approaching in battle to save The Windmill” by marymck

I feel it is necessary to clarify my position in light of the incorrect information in this posting and to provide some background to the history of the site.

First of all, I would like to say that contrary to the claims in this posting we have at no point said that Sainsbury's had withdrawn their plans. We remain fully supportive of the agreement that we have with Sainsbury's to lease the pub from St Gabriel's Properties. Sainsbury’s confirmed to us last week that they put up the site notices outside the Windmill pub on 31 August after receiving copies from Lewisham Council that week.

I understand that some local residents do not wish to see the pub close and I would like to make it clear that this is not a decision that we have made lightly. However, we cannot carry on or sustain running the premises as a pub as it has been making a huge loss for some time now. Recent tenants have not been able to make the business a success and we are currently running the pub on a loss. This is not sustainable and we will sadly need to close the pub by the end of the year.

By way of background, the property has been extensively marketed since 2008 and our agents approached pub operators as well as other types of occupiers such as children’s day nurseries, gyms, bars and restaurants. This resulted in no interest despite our efforts to find a suitable occupier. Sainsbury’s were approached by our agents and we were relieved to exchange contracts with them this summer.

The agreement with Sainsbury’s is the only viable option we have after many years of trying to sell or lease the pub. Irrespective of whether Sainsbury’s applications are successful we will have no choice but to close and board up the pub. Given the difficulty we have experienced in finding a tenant for the property, it is highly likely the property would remain vacant for a significant period of time. This would surely be detrimental to the vitality of this part of Sydenham and encourage anti-social behaviour. We strongly believe that Sainsbury’s would make a good tenant and would bring major benefits to Kirkdale and local residents.

I hope that this helps to clarify matters for you.


Dr Gabriel Christodoulou
St Gabriel's Properties Ltd

Thank you for at last taking the time to respond. Unfortunately the account you now give is not in accordance with my understanding and experience of events.

My understanding is that your daughter, acting on your behalf told more than one person that Sainsburys had withdrawn. We thought this explained why no yellow planning application notices had been displayed.

We celebrated accordingly.

Nevertheless, I felt it prudent to check with Sainsburys agent. He told me Sainsburys had not withdrawn.

Your daughter Maria - who refused to give me her surname - then telephoned me. Unfortunately, during the course of that conversation she contradicted herself several times. I requested a meeting be held at the pub, to look one another in the eye and discuss the plans and put the record straight.

I made the point to her that had you not kept your plans to dispose of the Windmill secret I am sure an operator could have been found to take on the lease of the pub, which I understand has always been profitable. Even now, at this late stage, I know of someone who is potentially interested in taking on the lease.

I now repeat to you the request I made to your daughter. That is that you or your representatives hold a meeting in the Windmill, where you can explain to staff, customers and neighbours what your plans are and why you have kept us in the dark for so long. Frankly what you are saying contradicts what your family members have said and we deserve a face to face meeting.

I also request that you allow Lewisham Council officials access to the Windmill's accounts and that you present them with evidence of details of the marketing of the pub and the organizations your agent has approached.

I also repeat my request that you return to us the signed petition which your son and daughter removed from the pub. This is not your property and the names and contact details of those who signed the petition are subject to the data protection act.

I can confirm that as of 15 minutes ago no yellow planning notice has yet been displayed on or near the pub.

I have spoken to Sainsburys agent, who, like you, is not familiar with the area. He was under the mistaken impression that a yellow notice had been attached to a bus stop. I confirmed that this was not the case. In any case, surely anyone intending to put a planning notice up would do better to attach it to the building.- where the licensing application notices remain on display since May - rather than on a bus stop, which is entirely covered by bus timetables and which has nowhere such a sign could have conceivably been displayed!

Notwithstanding the above, I welcome your efforts to finally engage with the community and very much look forward to a face to face meeting in the Windmill.

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[harrym]

Hi Mary - I'm sure you mean well but I can't see a fight to stop Sainsburys opening being anything other than detrimental to Kirkdale. I'm pleased by the news and hope it will encourage the area to flourish. I approached Antic pubs re the space last year and it wasn't viable for them. And they know their stuff. I'm not interested in anything less than that in terms of quality as, as a previous poster mentioned, there are two other locals within about 100m. Please don't jeopardise a positive retail opportunity or it'll turn into another Greyhound disaster.

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[marymck]

Hi Mary - I'm sure you mean well but I can't see a fight to stop Sainsburys opening being anything other than detrimental to Kirkdale. I'm pleased by the news and hope it will encourage the area to flourish. I approached Antic pubs re the space last year and it wasn't viable for them. And they know their stuff. I'm not interested in anything less than that in terms of quality as, as a previous poster mentioned, there are two other locals within about 100m. Please don't jeopardise a positive retail opportunity or it'll turn into another Greyhound disaster.

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[marymck]

Hi Mary - I'm sure you mean well but I can't see a fight to stop Sainsburys opening being anything other than detrimental to Kirkdale. I'm pleased by the news and hope it will encourage the area to flourish. I approached Antic pubs re the space last year and it wasn't viable for them. And they know their stuff. I'm not interested in anything less than that in terms of quality as, as a previous poster mentioned, there are two other locals within about 100m. Please don't jeopardise a positive retail opportunity or it'll turn into another Greyhound disaster.

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Harry I notice this is your first post. Are you an estate agent working on behalf of the Christodoulou family? If so I would be grateful for details of your campaign. The Acorn flyer I have managed to find specified that staff and customers not be told of the plans to sell. Whilst I personally don't think we need yet another supermarket in a very small stretch of road, there us an empty shop three doors away from the Windmill which would have made a much more suitable site for a supermarket. Especially given the fact that that shop has space for a loading bay and parking at the rear, which the Windmill has not.

If Sainsburys open I believe we will lose a valued small shopkeeper, who has been an integral part of our community for many years. I know where my loyalties lie.

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[harrym]

I'm not an estate agent! Just a local mum who would love to see/help the area improve x

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[marymck]

I am a local resident and find the obsession with Pubs in Kirkdale quite strange but everyone has their own reasons for wanting to protect pubs but I find that this would be much stronger case IF there was a lack of alternatives in the area BUT this is not the case as being in the lovely Kirkdale we have 2 others 1 being Foxes & the other being the Bricklayers Arms which from experience and observance seem to have less trouble and excessively drunk individuals leaving...

Casey I will attempt to answer your points separately (and probably tomorrow, as I an very, very tired now).

But firstly, I just want to make the point that for many there is no alternative to the Windmill. as I have saud many times, the Windmill is the only community gathering space in the area with full disabled access. It is the only pub in the area with a toilet with space to turn a wheelchair round.

It is the only pub in the area big enough to hold functions.

It welcomes children until 5.00 p.m.

These things combine to make it a very popular venue for birthday parties and family occasions. It is very popular for wakes.

Sadly the Christodoulou family have refused for years to make repairs. Hence the broken window and cooker! Nevertheless, until the blue Sainsburys licence application notices went up, it was doing a roaring trade in hosting functions.

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[marymck]

I'm not an estate agent! Just a local mum who would love to see/help the area improve x

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Sorry Harry, I thought you were connected to the Christodoulous, as this was your first post and you said you had approached Antic pubs about the Windmill. May I ask what prompted you to contact Antic?

As a mum, are you not concerned about the sale of cheap alcohol from early in the morning, and the inevitable price war on alcohol that will erupt between Sainsburys and Tesco? I know the manager of Miriam Lodge is worried about the effects on his residents.

I would see the loss of the Windmill - a large gathering space for the community, with a lot of untapped potential - as detrimental to the regeneration of the Kirkdale/Willow Way area. We cannot afford to lose our social infrastructure, especially at such a turning point in terms of planning opportunities.

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[Eagle]

Mary
I admire your effort and your campaign.

I am not sure whether the area can support a pub , but I certainly agree it does not want another supermarket.

True your have The Fox and Hounds and Brick close by , but we have lost The Woodman.

Obviously I do not have access to any accounts and indeed to not really understand the economics of running a successful pub
, but if a new owner given a chance to operate a pub with good food and good beer then it could work.

I do wish you every success Mary . Maybe the lack of success recently is done to the rent being charged by the current owners of the site.

[hairybuddha]

This is almost as entertaining as the Dolphin thread

[marymck]

This is almost as entertaining as the Dolphin thread

Oh yes? I'm glad that the sight of good, hard working people losing their livelihoods and social lives is keeping you entertained HB.

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[hairybuddha]

Not to worry, I hear Sainsbury's are recruiting in the area.

[parker]

LMAO

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