second pedestrian light by Sydenham station

[Rachael]

Admin - is it time to split this thread? Most of the discussion has nothing to do with the new traffic lights anymore.

I was going to. But that was before it became the most popular thread in a long time. No way am I going to get in the way of a decent row. More, more ... nobody's yet mentioned mobility scooters storming our pavements

Admin

Oh, admin, you are awful...

Talking of mobility scooters, I wondered if the half-on / half-off parking space outside The Pavilion pub is going to be designated for disabled drivers. I can't see why else there would be a parking space with potential obstruction issues on the bridge.

Many of the arguments on this thread are based on assumptions rather than facts. Does anyone know how much of the traffic on Sydenham Road is local and how much is just passing through? I mostly use Sydenham Road to leave Sydenham (I know, strange, but true). There is no point in my being able to zip along a clear road designated for locals and deliveries only, if I'm just going to hit a solid wall of displaced traffic just past Cobbs Corner.

[hairybuddha]

Many of the arguments on this thread are based on assumptions rather than facts. Does anyone know how much of the traffic on Sydenham Road is local and how much is just passing through? I mostly use Sydenham Road to leave Sydenham (I know, strange, but true). There is no point in my being able to zip along a clear road designated for locals and deliveries only, if I'm just going to hit a solid wall of displaced traffic just past Cobbs Corner.

Rachael - It's a good point and a good question. Of course it wouldn't be an internet forum without lots of halfbaked ideas backed up with non statistics. Most of my info on Lewisham traffic comes from TFL's traffic needs survey that it publishes regularly. It doesn't go down to the kind of detail that would model traffic movements along the high street. But I think it is a fair assumption to make that the vast majority of the traffic on the High St is through traffic based on a) Lewisham's low rate of car ownership b) the sheer volume of traffic c) the constantly half empty car park and d) most businesses seem to be struggling or dying. Surely if all of that traffic was stopping and spending money the place would be thriving? But I concede that this is no more than an assumption.

The idea that there would be a solid wall of displaced traffic at Cobbs Corner is I think incorrect and I have addressed it already a bit earlier. If, and I appreciate that it is a big if, we changed the conditions and access in a coherent way across the whole borough then the traffic would not be displaced, it would disappear. The demand for motor vehicle journeys would reduce dramatically. This is what happened in the Netherlands and Denmark whose road conditions 40 years ago were not unlike ours today.

[Tim Lund]

HB - you, Stuart and I know you are basically right. I first got into being an activist nearly 20 years ago as a Transport 2000 supporter, to campaign against 'the great car economy' of the Thatcher era. Evidence as opposed to anecdote is on our side, as also is economic theory in the sense of delivering best public value for money, as opposed to short term boosts to 'growth' as measured by GDP.

But we are up against enormous cultural and political forces. Well done for keeping up the effort, though.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Eagle]

Rachel
I doubt if there would be a wall of displaced traffic at Cobbs if then main road was buses only.

You must remember the major fact in South London is the few crossings there are of the railways.

Any traffic coming up from Catford would have to cross the railway at Penge or Forest Hill. No where near Cobb's corner.

[coll]

Wow. I usually never post here and didn't know this would cause such debate. Now I see admin saying its the most popular thread for a while. Maybe I should post more?
Thinking about possible topics
How about the man at Sydenham Station who 'works' by the gates. He's ALWAYS blocking the gate. And, if he's not talking on his phone, he's starring at it. What exactly is his job title/discription

[Rachael]

Rachel
I doubt if there would be a wall of displaced traffic at Cobbs if then main road was buses only.

You must remember the major fact in South London is the few crossings there are of the railways.

Any traffic coming up from Catford would have to cross the railway at Penge or Forest Hill. No where near Cobb's corner.

Well, you've put your finger on it right there, Eagle. If you stop people crossing the railway on Sydenham Road, they will be forced onto the South Circular at Forest Hill, or on towards Penge. My example of Cobbs Corner was an exaggeration for effect, but my point stands. If Sydenham Road is limited to locals and deliveries, it will help me pass along Sydenham Road easily, but will negatively affect other routes I drive on regularly. So this local would be negatively affected by such a limited move.

My argument is that we need a London-wide solution - or at least a South East London solution.

[dickp]

*cough*

Time of day, journey length and road-dependent road pricing.

[Checkmate]

Road pricing, yep. Charge everyone to use Sydenham Road...

How long will it take the residents of Silverdale, the Thorpes and Mayow Road to be posting here about how their lovely quiet little back streets are now permanently clogged with traffic....

[Eagle]

We do need a London solution. That MUST involve the restriction of private cars in favour of public transport.

Cannot and must not involve massive road building.

[Checkmate]

How about the man at Sydenham Station who 'works' by the gates. He's ALWAYS blocking the gate. And, if he's not talking on his phone, he's starring at it. What exactly is his job title/discription

Mobile Phone Starer-atter?

[hairybuddha]

Rachael - I suppose we are faced with a bit of a 'chicken and egg' scenario in that case. If we agree that there is too much traffic in London/Sydenham, then we need to try to do something about it.

The idea that there would be a subsequent wall of traffic in Lambeth (or wherever) is a pretty weak argument against taking action in Sydenham.

Checkmate - We've already covered the traffic displacement issue - i.e not an issue.

Dickp - Road pricing is an interesting idea. It's certainly correct that the true costs of motor vehicle use is not anywhere near reflected in the current cost of motoring, high as they may seem to the average motorist. I see you've ducked back in by the way, welcome back.

[Eagle]

Road pricing interesting but surely better to either ban or charge for all pavement parking.

[hairybuddha]

Road pricing interesting but surely better to either ban or charge for all pavement parking.

Why not both?

[stuart]

Road pricing becomes inevitable once battery powered cars become a significant. Otherwise the Chancellor can't balance his books since the crude pay per mile revenue that is the fuel duty disappears.

Unless somebody else can magic up a solution?

Why is Lewisham about the only London borough that does not charge for resident's parking? Its a poor borough and could well do with the revenue to support things like ... libraries ...

Stuart

[leenewham]

By pavement parking, do you mean people who park illegally on the pavement or by the side of the road?

Charging would kill the shops dead. Parking should be free and for an hour ideally.

Supermarkets spent a lot of money on research. They don't charge for parking. Most offer at least 2 hours parking for free, some more. They know what works. I've worked with a lot of shops in a lot of different areas of London. So many shop owners tell me how parking changes affect their business. Changes in Muswell Hill almost killed it when they brought in parking charges after 30 minutes grace.

How many people walk to Sainsbury' at Bell Green? Shopping can be heavy. Like it or not people use cars to shop. That's why Tesco were so successful leading the charge to out of town shopping centres. Ever been in Ikea when it's quiet?

Car ownership may be lower in Lewisham than other places in the country, but it's still how people shop. Some things are too big, too heavy too bulky to buy on public transport or carry far. Not everyone wants home delivery or perhaps one day everything will be on the internet.

It's a nice idea to have no cars, but it's a utopian dream. High streets need traffic, both on foot and by car. Shop fronts are important adverts to passing traffic on foot or by whatever wheeled transport is passing by, for individual shops and the whole area.

If you think cars aren't important to Sydenham Road, with only 30 mins free parking, how many spaces do you see vacant in Sydenham road during the day? Not many. Some 40 thousands cars/people (Michael, please verify!) pass by Forest Hill and get an impression of the place every day. That's amazing advertising.

People go for convenience 1st and price 2nd. The best selling car isn't the cheapest, the best selling products in a supermarket aren't the cheapest, the most popular supermarket isn't the cheapest, the most popular cafe's aren't the cheapest etc.

If we really want to change behaviour, we need to make other ways of doing things easier, more convenientand cheaper. It's not about making the thing you want people to do the least more expensive. It's really expensive using the tube. ESPECIALLY before 9.30am. Trains are amazingly expensive, it's far cheaper for me to drive down to my parents in Devon than take the train, and I still have 13 miles to go at the other end! Unfortunately driving there is simply more convenient and cheaper (for the individual journey), although I wish I could relax on the train rather than drive.

Compare that with travel to Belgium or France. I'd go by Eurostar over flying or driving anytime. Good value, convenient and comfortable.

[stuart]

Lee - you are making a fundamental mistake.

You are modelling the issue on the basis of free parking by our out of high street supermarkets. This distorts shopping into large (once a week?) splurges to Bell Green or wherever. You then say this pattern of shopping is fixed and transport has to be organised that way and we must have free parking in the High Street to compete.

Now imagine for a moment that Lewisham imposed a £5 charge for parking at Sainsbury's (I believe they already administer the car park) and maybe the same on/off Sydenham Road. The pattern of shopping would change. More people would use their local shops, they might go more often rather than one big splurge. Has a nice by-product in our food would be fresher. For those who can't walk or ride the supermarkets have a sophistiicated delivery service - which also costs a fiver.

Result is our High Street would get more trade and less cluttered with parked vehicles. A revived Sydenham.

Yes I know its a silly bit of imagination. It couldn't possibly work could it?

Stuart

[hairybuddha]

Stuart absolutely hits the nail on the head. Our High Streets and our shopping places are currently all configured to meet current behaviours which are all formed around the use of the motor car.

No one is saying that there should be no cars - But it is not a utopian dream to imagine towns and cities where walking and cycling are far more commonplace than they are now, with benefits for all of society. Not least motorists who would suffer less from congestion when making the journeys that they had to make by car. This is not a utopian dream because it is already the reality in countries that are really not very different from ours or very far away.

[Tim Lund]

Follow this link for an image of a city planned from the 1930s with the idea that the cars must be accommodated. Walking involved risk to life and limb, or diving down into subways.

It has a fairly amazing metro system though

[Checkmate]

Checkmate - We've already covered the traffic displacement issue - i.e not an issue.

Sorry, I must have missed that bit in the six pages of thread when I was trying to find the reason why there are two sets of pedestrian lights by Sydenham station.......

The happy medium of course is somewhere in between the two sides of the argument, as is usual. There will be a small minority who are green-minded, physically fit and can't (or choose not to) afford a car, who will shop at the independent stores on the high street, travelling there on foot or by public transport, and there will be a minority who crave convenience, are lazy, less mobile, or richer, who will take their cars down to Bell Green, and then down to the local Tesco express the day after to get what they forgot to get when they did their big shop the day before.

Most of us, I suspect, are like Mrs Checkmate and I, who will do a weekly shop in a big supermarket, and supplement that with fresher stuff, forgotten stuff, or something different/unplanned from the high street.

Oh god, now I've nudged it from car use to shopping habits....

[dickp]

If Lewisham imposed a £5 charge for parking at Sainsbury's, I'd drive to the one in Penge, or the Tesco in South Norwood. Even accounting for the cost of petrol, it would be (marginally) worth it. Or I'd buy online, and get it delivered.