Westwood Hill

[Southernbelle]

I wonder if anyone can help me please.


I am trying to find out about the history of a house on Westwood hill (I have a family member who lives there), and cannot seem to find the address on any census records. Was it called something different at first, and am I correct in looking under Lewisham/Sydenham for it? I really would be very grateful for any pointers.

Thanks

[Falkor]

What was the name of the house? There probably wouldn't have been a number associated with it, since the hill contained a number of grand mansions like Westwood House and Sydenham Hall. On the other side of the road was the church meadow houses + the ones that existed before the creation of Beaulieu Avenue in the 60s or 70s. The church meadow houses plus a number of others further up the road near the intersection with Crystal Palace Park Road still exist. Tell us everything you know about this house? Your family member living there right now or did an ancestor live there?

Was it called something different at first

Maybe. I think the Sydenham School building changed names before.

and am I correct in looking under Lewisham/Sydenham for it?

Yes, Westwood Hill has always come under Sydenham (parish created in 1855), Lewisham (Ancient mother parish).

If you are looking for info about the history of the house, Steve Grindlay is the main man, providing you establish exactly which house. If you are looking for history of a family then it's best to search the census by name of the Head of Household rather than address. Again, you need to be more specific... plus I'm a little bit tired. Goodnight and welcome to Sydenham Town Forum!

[Southernbelle]

Thank you for replying so quickly.

It is No 41 , it on the corner of Charleville Circus, opposite Caen Tower.

It is converted to flats now, but was clearly a grand house. Msister lives there now and is interested in its history.

I found a map about 1894 which shows the area, but appears to show a row of terraces rather thn indivdual houses, this confused me as my estimation of its age was about 1870.

Regards

Alison

[Falkor]

Let's take a look at the history of that area through maps...

1745-1800
Nothing there!

1843


1862


1865


1875


1894


1914


1938


1949


1968


1976


1984

It appears that some terraces of detached houses were built along Westwood Hill at either side of Charleville Circus--also developed at the same--between 1875 and 1894. It seems they made the corner houses, like Caen Tower and 41--guarding the entrance to Charleville Circus--more grander than the rest, but this doesn't necessarily mean they are older. All the later maps are pretty low scale, but we can observe that the terraces do not appear to have changed until after the war. How 41 and it's neighbours were affected during this troubled time I'm unable to speculate, but you can find a map of bomb damage I posted in another topic. Apart from that I can't tell you specific things like when the house was built or possibly modified, nor how important the house was, the occupants etc, although others may be able to shed more light on this--notably Steve. Unfortunately, I couldn't find any old photos of this part of Westwood Hill, either, which would have come in handy for comparison; the only one is of Caen Tower from Charleville Circus in the Sydenham and Forest Hill book. LMA might have some old photos of Westwood Hill, as I didn't have enough time to finish photocopying them on my last visit. I reckon there's a good chance your sister's house will be included, although not sure if it would look any different.

[Southernbelle]

Wow, thats really interesting. Thanks.

I contacted Steve, I hope he wont mind.

I noticed that it is referred to as West Hill on one map, the others are too indistinct to read.

It was clearly a grand house with servants etc, I bet some wealthy folk lived there.

Would you be interested in anything I manage to find?



Regards

Alison

[Steve Grindlay]

Hi Alison

Thanks for the PM; it prodded me into action.

The House was originally called Bombay Hall, and by 1876 it was occupied by a retired Indian Army officer, Major General John Guillam Scott, and his family. 1876 was probably the date the house was built, as it is not shown on Falkor's 1875 map. The family lived there for many years and the general's daughter Florence, who was born in India in about 1853, was still there in 1925. By the 1930s the house had been divided into 4 flats.

The road was still called West Hill in 1939; I imagine it became Westwood Hill sometime after the war.

I hope this is of some help; you can get more detailed information from Lewisham Local History Centre.

[Falkor]

I noticed that it is referred to as West Hill on one map, the others are too indistinct to read.

I completely forgot about this; thanks for reminding me!

Would you be interested in anything I manage to find?

Of course! I'm always looking to gain new info regarding the history of Sydenham, and there's a lot to learn considering it's such a built up area. Next time I walk down Westwood Hill I will see those houses in a new light, and it should make my walk more enjoyable thanks to your topic.

Bombay Hall--what a name!? That's excellent...

1876 was probably the date the house was built, as it is not shown on Falkor's 1875 map.

Hold up mate, I just found 2 more maps on your FlickR space!
1878 Stanford...
1879 Bacon...
There could be a gap of a year of two in those map dates depending on when the area was surveyed and when the map was published, so it cannot be taken as proof of Year Of Completion, but the building is certainly there on the 1879 map. Anyway, that definitely narrows it down to the 1870s rather than the 1890s end. And we can now get a more better idea of the order the estate was built in; the detached terrace was built east to west with Charleville Circus completed afterwards. By the way, I got my left and right mixed up earlier, even though I don't have Dyspraxia. I thought Caen Tower was on the other side, so the photo in the book was taken from Westwood Hill. The bomb damage appears to be on the Caen Tower side, and I heard it lost it's tower!

[Southernbelle]

Thanks so much you guys, my sis will be thrilled. I am going to study the census now. Shall I email you, or post on here with the findings?

I am down south a couple of times a year, so will have to trips to local sources until next visit.

Alison

[Steve Grindlay]

... it cannot be taken as proof of Year Of Completion, but the building is certainly there on the 1879 map

I'm pretty sure the building was there by 1876 as the Post Office London Directory for 1876 has an entry for "Scott, Gen. Guillame, Bombay Hall, West Hill". He is not mentioned in the 1875 or earlier directories so I assume 1876 (or perhaps 1875, as the directories were often compiled during the preceding year) was the year that he moved in. The dates of directories are usually accurate to within a year or two whereas the dating of maps is much less precise.

I would be delighted if anybody could find any information about General Scott.

[Southernbelle]

Household Record 1881 British Census

Search results | Download Previous Household Next Household


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Household:

Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John C. SCOTT Head M Male 60 London, London, Middlesex, England Major General Retired List
Agnes L. SCOTT Wife M Female 61 Edinburgh, Scotland
Ellen KENNEDY Daughter W Female 30 Scinde, India
Florence SCOTT Daughter U Female 28 Scinde, India
Stanley E. SCOTT Son U Male 23 Bathan, India
Francis CHAPMAN Son In Law M Male 50 Col Bombay Army
Frances CHAPMAN Daughter M Female 32 Bombay, India
Agnes CHAPMAN Grand Daughter U Female 17 Mattipore, India
Selina FOSGOOD Servant U Female 30 Wiltshire, England Cook
Esther NYE Servant U Female 22 Maidstone, Kent, England Gen Servant
Mary ADMORE Servant U Female 18 Canmore, Oxford, England Gen Servant
M. BRISCOE Servant M Female 20 Brighton, Sussex, England Col Servant
Clara CHAPMAN Grand Daughter Female 6 India
Ronald CHAPMAN Grandson Male 3 Bombay, India
Hamilton SCOTT Nephew U Male 40 Stock Broker


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling West Hill Bombay Hall
Census Place Lewisham, Kent, England
Family History Library Film 1341171
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0736 / 78
Page Number 11


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[Falkor]

Dwelling West Hill Bombay Hall
Census Place Lewisham, Kent, England

Nice one! Please post here if you find anymore info...

[Southernbelle]

Preview
Name: Agnes Haldane
Year of Registration: 1846
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4

Married
John Guillum Scott 1846 Apr-May-Jun Lambeth Greater London, London, Surrey


Hooked now!!!

[Southernbelle]

John Guillum Scott abt 1821 1894 Apr-May-Jun Lewisham Greater London, Kent, London


Death Record

[Southernbelle]

Agnes Scott abt 1820 1907 Apr-May-Jun Lewisham Greater London, Kent, London

death record

[Southernbelle]

Florence Scott 1854 Jul-Aug-Sep Lewisham Greater London, Kent, London

birth record


Were military births abroad registered in the UK?

[Falkor]

Were military births abroad registered in the UK?

I don't know considering none of my family members fell under both categories simultaneously, so I've never had to look into it, but I'm sure it will explain it in this book I got; you do know what the best all-round Family History book is, don't you? It's essential you own it if you are doing this kind of research. Also, you could give me an example of an overseas birth, and I could attempt to look it up for you. You see, I've got some credits at FindMyPast that I know are never going to get used up as my Family Tree is on hold right now, so the offer is there if ever you need it.

Alison, do you have Indian blood inside of you? Besides Local History, I've been studying how to make a good curry, but I follow all the books published by so-called "star chefs"--like a robot--and it never comes out like the restaurants! I've paid out for the best measuring equipment money can buy, but still no joy. Therefore, I'm seriously considering doing voluntary work inside an Indian restaurant if any will take me. I should really post this in the Offers section; does anyone out there need a trainee chef to work free of charge? I'm determined to know the secret of how to make a good Chicken Dhansak. I'm fully stocked up on Tamarind and Jaggery, Garam Masala...you name it! Will any Sydenham Tandoori Restaurant owners out there reading this topic take on an average white guy--free of charge?

[pip]

Hi Falkor,
I myself am a curry addict and have even had cookery lessons in Southern India which were a bit too much to take in in such a short time.
Try taking a look at ( www.curryhouse.co.uk ) They have some very authentic curry house style recipes including Dansak which I have tried out and I must say its about the closest you will get to the real thing.
The flavour of dried fenugreek (methi ) is the ingredient that adds the final touch although I can never seem to find it in the shops anywhere on Sydenham Road.
Let me know how you get on.

[Kiwi-girl]

... it cannot be taken as proof of Year Of Completion, but the building is certainly there on the 1879 map

I'm pretty sure the building was there by 1876 as the Post Office London Directory for 1876 has an entry for "Scott, Gen. Guillame, Bombay Hall, West Hill". He is not mentioned in the 1875 or earlier directories so I assume 1876 (or perhaps 1875, as the directories were often compiled during the preceding year) was the year that he moved in. The dates of directories are usually accurate to within a year or two whereas the dating of maps is much less precise.

I would be delighted if anybody could find any information about General Scott.

Hi Steve, General John Guillum-Scott was my gg/grandfather. I have just
found this site and joined. - Helene

[Southernbelle]

Hi there Helene,

Are you related to Mary Cave-Palmer with whom I m already corresponding? If you want to send me a private message back, i`ll send you what I have
Alison Unwin