I feel very ignorant on this topic. With primary school, it was relatively straight-forward: we applied for one of closest state primaries on the SE23/26 border and happened to get in.
Now my eldest in 9. And suddenly lots of parents seem to be moving to Hayes/ West Wickham/ Beckenham. Friends in Beckenham (but not in the hallowed Park Langley catchment) are moving out to Hayes/ West Wickham too.
All this...movement is starting to unsettle me. Potential moral dilemmas aside, we can't afford to go private. I don't really want to move. Kingsdale is our closest secondary, but has a Byzantine admissions system, which leaves us Forest Hill Boys and Sydenham School. Which I was OK with, until I've just seen that they are around the 50% mark for A-C GCSE.
So where do SE23 state primary kids go on to? Do primary schools publish this information? <Trembles at thought at approaching Head about this...>
Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on whole?
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SydenhamHillAndy
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 20 Jul 2007 15:01
- Location: SE26
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
I have two kids at secondary school, one age 15 and one age 12 who is now in year 7. So I have both recent experience and hindsight on this issue.
The first and most important thing to do is get a sense of perspective on league tables. These are comprehensive schools. They take children from across the board in terms of ability. Lewisham tests all the children in their primary schools at the end of year five and puts them in ability bands. Secondary schools in Lewisham are obliged to take children across these ability bands, an equal percentage of each. Other schools outside our borough (such as Haberdashers and Harris in Crystal Palace) run their own testing to do the same.
When you look at the league tables for these schools, you are seeing a rather raw statistic - how many of these children got 5 GCSEs at grades A-C. Now, if a school takes children of ALL abilities, getting 60% of them out the door with a respectable fist of GCSEs is a good result.
It doesn't mean the able children are not coming out with 10, 11 or 12 GCSEs. Nor does it mean that the least able (or least motivated) are not leaving with nothing. How your own child will fare will have much more to do with their ability, their personality and how the ethos of the school suits them than anything the league tables will tell you.
A word about private schools (although I know you said you weren't going down that route): there is a myth among London parents that you pay your fees to a private school and sit back, job done. Not so. Now being a parent of a mid-teen, who has friends in private schools, I can tell you that a child who doesn't want to work, or a child who is easily distracted, will not do any better in a private school than a state one. And if they want to get hold of drugs, they'll find it much easier in private school where there is money sloshing around. These schools may look good in the league tables, but that's because they select the brightest kids. They also quite adept at staggering the times children take GCSEs and the exams they do (or do not) take to make sure outliers don't spoil their rankings.
So, to get back to your original question: where do our kids go to secondary school.
Forest Hill / Sydenham - lots go to these schools and they are really pretty decent.
Kingsdale and Charter in Dulwich - both very popular with parents, both with significant problems. I wouldn't send a child of mine to either.
Haberdashers - once a flag ship school. Still good but harder to get into as it has a feeder primary. It is now the lead school in a federation - the jury is still out on whether this has been a good idea or not. It has a very particular style which doesn't not suit every child. Small catchment but kids from our area can get in, usually on music scholarships. On average, one child from our primary school went on to Haberdashers each year in this way.
Prendegast (Girls) - another traditionally good school that is now the lead school in a federation. Typically in these federations good schools take on failing schools with the aim of raising standards in the latter. There is some concern that this is actually causing falling standards in the good school, but it's too early to say. Prendegast has a very small catchment but takes girls from further afield on musical scholarships, same as Haberdashers.
Harris, Crystal Palace - a business and technology oriented school. Decent results.
Grammar schools - there are several in Bexley, and for girls there are some a bit further afield in Surrey. LB Bexley run the selection tests for the grammar schools in their borough, more info on their website. For others, ask your primary head for info if you think your child may be a candidate. Children are selected on ability.
Catholic schools - if you are Catholic, then you have a wider choice of schools:
Bonus Pastor (Downham)
Bishop Thomas Grant (Streatham)
For boys: John Fisher (Purley), Oratory (Pimlico?)
For girls: Coloma (Shirley), St Ursula's (Greenwich / Blackheath)
In the end, I sent my children to Bishop Thomas Grant school. When my daughter went there four years ago, the school was improving, but not spectacular. But the head is inspirational and I could see he was going to do great things, and that he wasn't going to up and leave once results had been improved. It was the head, the teaching staff, the ethos, the atmosphere in the school that made me sure it was the place for my two very bright and academic kids. Some people thought I was mad. BTG is now one of the best schools in Lambeth and both my children are safe, happy and thriving.
In a nutshell - trust your instincts and know your child.
The first and most important thing to do is get a sense of perspective on league tables. These are comprehensive schools. They take children from across the board in terms of ability. Lewisham tests all the children in their primary schools at the end of year five and puts them in ability bands. Secondary schools in Lewisham are obliged to take children across these ability bands, an equal percentage of each. Other schools outside our borough (such as Haberdashers and Harris in Crystal Palace) run their own testing to do the same.
When you look at the league tables for these schools, you are seeing a rather raw statistic - how many of these children got 5 GCSEs at grades A-C. Now, if a school takes children of ALL abilities, getting 60% of them out the door with a respectable fist of GCSEs is a good result.
It doesn't mean the able children are not coming out with 10, 11 or 12 GCSEs. Nor does it mean that the least able (or least motivated) are not leaving with nothing. How your own child will fare will have much more to do with their ability, their personality and how the ethos of the school suits them than anything the league tables will tell you.
A word about private schools (although I know you said you weren't going down that route): there is a myth among London parents that you pay your fees to a private school and sit back, job done. Not so. Now being a parent of a mid-teen, who has friends in private schools, I can tell you that a child who doesn't want to work, or a child who is easily distracted, will not do any better in a private school than a state one. And if they want to get hold of drugs, they'll find it much easier in private school where there is money sloshing around. These schools may look good in the league tables, but that's because they select the brightest kids. They also quite adept at staggering the times children take GCSEs and the exams they do (or do not) take to make sure outliers don't spoil their rankings.
So, to get back to your original question: where do our kids go to secondary school.
Forest Hill / Sydenham - lots go to these schools and they are really pretty decent.
Kingsdale and Charter in Dulwich - both very popular with parents, both with significant problems. I wouldn't send a child of mine to either.
Haberdashers - once a flag ship school. Still good but harder to get into as it has a feeder primary. It is now the lead school in a federation - the jury is still out on whether this has been a good idea or not. It has a very particular style which doesn't not suit every child. Small catchment but kids from our area can get in, usually on music scholarships. On average, one child from our primary school went on to Haberdashers each year in this way.
Prendegast (Girls) - another traditionally good school that is now the lead school in a federation. Typically in these federations good schools take on failing schools with the aim of raising standards in the latter. There is some concern that this is actually causing falling standards in the good school, but it's too early to say. Prendegast has a very small catchment but takes girls from further afield on musical scholarships, same as Haberdashers.
Harris, Crystal Palace - a business and technology oriented school. Decent results.
Grammar schools - there are several in Bexley, and for girls there are some a bit further afield in Surrey. LB Bexley run the selection tests for the grammar schools in their borough, more info on their website. For others, ask your primary head for info if you think your child may be a candidate. Children are selected on ability.
Catholic schools - if you are Catholic, then you have a wider choice of schools:
Bonus Pastor (Downham)
Bishop Thomas Grant (Streatham)
For boys: John Fisher (Purley), Oratory (Pimlico?)
For girls: Coloma (Shirley), St Ursula's (Greenwich / Blackheath)
In the end, I sent my children to Bishop Thomas Grant school. When my daughter went there four years ago, the school was improving, but not spectacular. But the head is inspirational and I could see he was going to do great things, and that he wasn't going to up and leave once results had been improved. It was the head, the teaching staff, the ethos, the atmosphere in the school that made me sure it was the place for my two very bright and academic kids. Some people thought I was mad. BTG is now one of the best schools in Lambeth and both my children are safe, happy and thriving.
In a nutshell - trust your instincts and know your child.
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SydenhamHillAndy
- Posts: 116
- Joined: 20 Jul 2007 15:01
- Location: SE26
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Thanks for all of that Rachel, really appreciate the feedback.
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Manwithaview1
- Posts: 2162
- Joined: 21 Jan 2012 21:23
- Location: Sydenham Hill Estate
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Rachel what problems does Kingsdale have?
Can any school around here better their OFSTED report?
Can any school around here better their OFSTED report?
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Ofsted reports don't tell you all you need to know about a school. Kingsdale's last report rated the school as Good. It was Outstanding before, but comparisons can't be made as the framework has changed radically. Forest Hill boys school is also rated Good.
However, last year's GCSE results at Kingsdale were not great - 36% percent getting grades A*-C. Significantly down after so called whistle blowers said there was significant cheating by teachers with coursework. While these accusations were not upheld, rumours abound about tensions between the head and senior management and other staff. Critical comments about the school's administration are regularly removed from Mumsnet and The East Dulwich Forum. Who is asking Admins to remove these posts? I can understand a school not wanting unfounded rumours online, and so far much of it is rumour, but when there is so much rumour, and so many 'this post has been removed' messages on public forums, the school's reputation begins to be undermined.
So, accusations, rumour, hearsay, gossip, and falling results. All would make me think twice about sending a child there.That's not to say there aren't people happy with the school - it has many supporters. Just that it wouldn't be on my list.
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However, last year's GCSE results at Kingsdale were not great - 36% percent getting grades A*-C. Significantly down after so called whistle blowers said there was significant cheating by teachers with coursework. While these accusations were not upheld, rumours abound about tensions between the head and senior management and other staff. Critical comments about the school's administration are regularly removed from Mumsnet and The East Dulwich Forum. Who is asking Admins to remove these posts? I can understand a school not wanting unfounded rumours online, and so far much of it is rumour, but when there is so much rumour, and so many 'this post has been removed' messages on public forums, the school's reputation begins to be undermined.
So, accusations, rumour, hearsay, gossip, and falling results. All would make me think twice about sending a child there.That's not to say there aren't people happy with the school - it has many supporters. Just that it wouldn't be on my list.
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Last edited by Rachael on 2 Mar 2013 13:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Manwithaview1
- Posts: 2162
- Joined: 21 Jan 2012 21:23
- Location: Sydenham Hill Estate
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Thanks for the clear reply.Rachael wrote:Ofsted reports don't tell you all you need to know about a school. Kingsdale' last report rated the school as Good. It was Outstanding before, but comparisons can't be made as the framework has changed radically. Forest Hill boys school is also rated Good.
However, last year's GCSE results were not great - 36% percent getting grades A*-C. Significantly down after so called whistle blowers said there was significant cheating by teachers with coursework. While these accusations were not upheld, rumours abound about tensions between the head and senior management and other staff. Critical comments about the school's administration are regularly removed from Mumsnet and The East Dulwich Forum. Who is asking Admins to remove these posts? I can understand a school not wanting unfounded rumours online, and so far much of it is rumour, but when there is so much rumour, and so many 'this post has been removed' messages on public forums, the school's reputation begins to be undermined.
So, accusations, rumour, hearsay, gossip, and falling results. All would make me think twice about sending a child there.That's not to say there aren't people happy with the school - it has many supporters. Just that it wouldn't be on my list.
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bradfordroadgirl
- Posts: 42
- Joined: 5 Jul 2009 00:04
- Location: Forest Hill
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Haberdashers - once a flag ship school. Still good but harder to get into as it has a feeder primary. It is now the lead school in a federation - the jury is still out on whether this has been a good idea or not. It has a very particular style which doesn't not suit every child. Small catchment but kids from our area can get in, usually on music scholarships. On average, one child from our primary school went on to Haberdashers each year in this way.
Although this won't be relevant to many people, this school also offers out 6 - 8 places for high functioning ASD/Asperger's pupils. The inclusions team go the mile for these kids.
They are also quick to lose the real troublemakers. Maybe not all schools can bring this about depending on state rulings etc.,
I wanted to highlight this because when we had to look for a yr 7 place for our son, it was so hard to know of a good option in mainstream. He is doing really well. The Headteacher at Forest Hill Boys was very open that his school couldn't offer barely anything (that suited OUR son) by comparison. The extra learning areas or one to one rooms are like little rabbit hutches, some with no natural light - resembling cupboards.
Have always thought that it is wise to look at how the middle ability kids are performing to get a true picture. The kids at the top are always going to produce good figures.
Although this won't be relevant to many people, this school also offers out 6 - 8 places for high functioning ASD/Asperger's pupils. The inclusions team go the mile for these kids.
They are also quick to lose the real troublemakers. Maybe not all schools can bring this about depending on state rulings etc.,
I wanted to highlight this because when we had to look for a yr 7 place for our son, it was so hard to know of a good option in mainstream. He is doing really well. The Headteacher at Forest Hill Boys was very open that his school couldn't offer barely anything (that suited OUR son) by comparison. The extra learning areas or one to one rooms are like little rabbit hutches, some with no natural light - resembling cupboards.
Have always thought that it is wise to look at how the middle ability kids are performing to get a true picture. The kids at the top are always going to produce good figures.
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Sydenham Catholics
- Posts: 1
- Joined: 7 Aug 2013 19:48
- Location: south east london
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
Our grandkids have the same problem, we either go the private route or try for one of the better Catholic schools,
John Fisher, Coloma and Oratory.
It's a shame as kids from the parishes around here no longer get into Fisher which used to select its boys with the use of interviews with the parents, we sent our sons there and some boys even went to the Oratory in Fulham.
Does anyone know the furthest distance a child was admitted to Fisher recently?
Graham and Sandra Downes
John Fisher, Coloma and Oratory.
It's a shame as kids from the parishes around here no longer get into Fisher which used to select its boys with the use of interviews with the parents, we sent our sons there and some boys even went to the Oratory in Fulham.
Does anyone know the furthest distance a child was admitted to Fisher recently?
Graham and Sandra Downes
Re: Which secondaries do local primary kids go on to, on who
My youngest left Our Lady and St Philip Neri primary school last year. Each year one or two boys will get into John Fisher and one or two girls into Coloma. They don't select on distance.Sydenham Catholics wrote:Our grandkids have the same problem, we either go the private route or try for one of the better Catholic schools,
John Fisher, Coloma and Oratory.
It's a shame as kids from the parishes around here no longer get into Fisher which used to select its boys with the use of interviews with the parents, we sent our sons there and some boys even went to the Oratory in Fulham.
Does anyone know the furthest distance a child was admitted to Fisher recently?
Graham and Sandra Downes
I've sent both of mine to Bishop Thomas Grant school in Streatham which has turned itself around and is an absolutely fantastic school. If you are looking at Catholic secondary schools I really recommend visiting BTG.
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