Interesting to see the comments about Bromley council and the Park.
I lived in Sydenham and Penge for 40 years; It was the view then that Bromley council considered itself "Lumbered" with Penge and Anerley and CP Park after the formation of the GLC.
It particularly did not like inhabitants of the surrounding boroughs of Lambeth, and Lewisham sending their kids to Bromley area to take advantage of better schools away from the influence of the nutcase councillors running those boroughs back then.
Again it was commonly considered the reason why so many schools in Penge were closed or run down, to remove them from the catchment area being taken advantage of by other than Bromley residents.
The Old Boys Grammar school In Penge being a case in Point, as was the running down of Cator Park girls school.
Bromley council used Penge as a dumping ground for troublesome types from St Paul/ St Mary Cray area, the Queen Adeliade court estate in Penge Lane descended from a show piece estate in the 1950`s to a near ghetto by the time I left in 1988. The high density housing put up by LBB did'nt help either.
In the late 1960's the street lamps in Penge side streets were turned out at midnight, you would'nt chance that these days.It was like a small villagewithin a conurbation
All the small parks that were supervised with resident keepers, shut at night had the keepers and fences removed to ensure further deterioration.
Crime in the area rocketed.
Police at Penge were largely useless in the area;
It was the policies of Bromley towrds Penge that contributed to driving me away from SE London.
Bromley councils attitude to Crystal Palace Park should always be viewed with suspicion, they would love to reduce it to a patch of grass surrounded by executive houses, preferably tory voters.
Never, Ever trust Bromley council
Say "No!" to housing on Crystal Palace Park
CPCA
The recent well publicised public meeting called by the CPCA and others in order to rally support for their campaign against housing and other proposed developments for the park attracted approximately 36 attendees; about 7 more than attended their AGM
In comparison when the Crystal Palace Campaign called its first public meeting to rally support for the fight against the multiplex over 600 local people sqeezed into the Balmoral Suite of the Queens Hotel. In fact some were turned away as the hall was full!
If the CPCA called this meeting to guage the level of grass roots support for their stance, they can only conclude that they do not reflect the views of the local community. but instead a minority stance however sincerely held.
In comparison when the Crystal Palace Campaign called its first public meeting to rally support for the fight against the multiplex over 600 local people sqeezed into the Balmoral Suite of the Queens Hotel. In fact some were turned away as the hall was full!
If the CPCA called this meeting to guage the level of grass roots support for their stance, they can only conclude that they do not reflect the views of the local community. but instead a minority stance however sincerely held.
I take your point Outcast. Opposition to the mutiplex had, quite rightly, massive local support. What "the group" fail to acknowledge is that they now simply do not represent the same majority local opinion.
Take the proposed extension of Tramlink to Crystal Palace as an example.
"The group" ran a noisy campaign opposing the scheme.
TFL conducted a survey and received 1,520 replies with over two thirds of respondents in favour of the scheme. The project has the support of the LB of Bromley and Croydon. In addition, 75 local Crystal Palace businesses, signed a petition in favour of the extension.
Clearly, the majority of local public, business and political opinion was in favour of the scheme.
What was the reaction of "the group"? To gracefully accept the verdict and acknowledge that they didn't reflect local opinion? Of course not! Instead they claimed that the consultation was "flawed" and should have contained a question asking whether people wanted the extension to end at Crystal Palace station. Why on earth locals would want the extension to terminate halfway down the hill and not close to the shops and bus station is difficult to fathom but it's all part of a rewriting of history as far as "the group" is concerned. When you don't like the results, ignore them. When you don't like people's opinions shout them down or try to shut them up.
Take the proposed extension of Tramlink to Crystal Palace as an example.
"The group" ran a noisy campaign opposing the scheme.
TFL conducted a survey and received 1,520 replies with over two thirds of respondents in favour of the scheme. The project has the support of the LB of Bromley and Croydon. In addition, 75 local Crystal Palace businesses, signed a petition in favour of the extension.
Clearly, the majority of local public, business and political opinion was in favour of the scheme.
What was the reaction of "the group"? To gracefully accept the verdict and acknowledge that they didn't reflect local opinion? Of course not! Instead they claimed that the consultation was "flawed" and should have contained a question asking whether people wanted the extension to end at Crystal Palace station. Why on earth locals would want the extension to terminate halfway down the hill and not close to the shops and bus station is difficult to fathom but it's all part of a rewriting of history as far as "the group" is concerned. When you don't like the results, ignore them. When you don't like people's opinions shout them down or try to shut them up.
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
The final proposals for the Masterplan are being worked up now. Supporting reports referring to environmental and transport implications on the area are also being completed, as are a myriad of other required documents.
The latest news from the London Development Agency is that an outline planning application is anticipated to be submitted in early October and a public consultation will take place, which is the statutory responsibility of Bromley Council as the Planning Authority. This will include an LDA exhibition possibly within the old Booking Hall at Crystal Palace station.
There will be plenty of publicity about this in the autumn and the websites will be running the news, as will local newspapers. I would expect that a further glossy Park News will be distributed as has been done previously. At this stage there there will be an opportunity for everyone who wishes to make comments on the proposals which will form part of Bromley's Planners' report to the planning committee when the proposals are considered.
It is anticipated that in view of the complexity of the application it may well take a year for the proposals to get to the planning committee.
Meanwhile various improvements will continue within the park - two turnstiles have ben removed - a new entrance square at Crystal Palace station is under construction. Various fences are likely to be removed from the middle of the park and, with luck, Capel Manor College will open a farm facility to the public for several hours a day on the site of the derelict farm buildings (funded by the LDA).
The latest news from the London Development Agency is that an outline planning application is anticipated to be submitted in early October and a public consultation will take place, which is the statutory responsibility of Bromley Council as the Planning Authority. This will include an LDA exhibition possibly within the old Booking Hall at Crystal Palace station.
There will be plenty of publicity about this in the autumn and the websites will be running the news, as will local newspapers. I would expect that a further glossy Park News will be distributed as has been done previously. At this stage there there will be an opportunity for everyone who wishes to make comments on the proposals which will form part of Bromley's Planners' report to the planning committee when the proposals are considered.
It is anticipated that in view of the complexity of the application it may well take a year for the proposals to get to the planning committee.
Meanwhile various improvements will continue within the park - two turnstiles have ben removed - a new entrance square at Crystal Palace station is under construction. Various fences are likely to be removed from the middle of the park and, with luck, Capel Manor College will open a farm facility to the public for several hours a day on the site of the derelict farm buildings (funded by the LDA).
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
To provide an update about the complaint made to Bromley on Capel Manor College's use of rooms within the Jubilee Stand for teaching purposes, the use of a 25m x 8m plot of land within the park for "horticulture" use and the felling of some trees within the farm area in Crystal Palace Park.
Last Thursday this complaint was put to Bromley's planning committee and the good news is that the decision went in favour of Capel Manor College!
The reasons given were as follows:
1. It was considered that the "change of use" was not material and therefore did not require planning permission. Neither was further planning permission required for the horticultural plot.
2. With regard to the trees, evidently they were not of a size (i.e. too small) which was notable for planning permission - in any case, the College have said and agreed that they will be planting more trees as replacements.
Capel Manor can now progress their plans for opening the farm facility for teachng Animal Husbandry and Management later this year and the farm will be open for several hours each day and for four hours at weekends for local residents to enjoy.
Last Thursday this complaint was put to Bromley's planning committee and the good news is that the decision went in favour of Capel Manor College!
The reasons given were as follows:
1. It was considered that the "change of use" was not material and therefore did not require planning permission. Neither was further planning permission required for the horticultural plot.
2. With regard to the trees, evidently they were not of a size (i.e. too small) which was notable for planning permission - in any case, the College have said and agreed that they will be planting more trees as replacements.
Capel Manor can now progress their plans for opening the farm facility for teachng Animal Husbandry and Management later this year and the farm will be open for several hours each day and for four hours at weekends for local residents to enjoy.
Pat - It seems very unreasonable to object to putting classrooms in the Jubilee Stand. The Jubilee Stand has many rooms which are totally unused. Classrooms will allow schools to use the zoo more effectively and give local people access to much-needed qualifications in horticulture and animal husbandry.
The people behind such objections (and those to small trees being destroyed) seem hell-bent on preventing our well-loved zoo from re-opening and are deliberately trying to place obstacles in the way.
What particular group or individuals could possibly have objected to such a reasonable proposal?
The people behind such objections (and those to small trees being destroyed) seem hell-bent on preventing our well-loved zoo from re-opening and are deliberately trying to place obstacles in the way.
What particular group or individuals could possibly have objected to such a reasonable proposal?
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
I have not seen the planning file at Bromley so cannot confirm who it is who filed the complaint - although I have my strong suspicions.
The details of the complaint and Bromley Officers' report to the planning committee can be found on www.crystalpalacecampaign.org
This website provides very full coverage about how Capel Manor College's attempts to set up an education facility and a farm have been thwarted. Hopefully this sorry saga is now at an end.
The details of the complaint and Bromley Officers' report to the planning committee can be found on www.crystalpalacecampaign.org
This website provides very full coverage about how Capel Manor College's attempts to set up an education facility and a farm have been thwarted. Hopefully this sorry saga is now at an end.
With the unacceptable behaviour of the rent a mob, it is easy to become very pro the LDA and all it does. Just because I object strongly to the way the rent a mob conducts itself does not mean that I am happy with eveything the LDA Masterplan offers.
One point in question is of course the farm. I along with many others agreed to the housing in order to get the farm back. Pat says it will be open for a few hours a day. How deffinate is this? I heard rumours of it opening for only an hour or an hour and a half each day. This as far as I am concerned not be worth giving up parkland for housing for.
Then what - more trees, more plants, better paths and more playgrounds. This is surely just park stuff - and doesn't need huge revenue to pay for it
The present playground is often monopolised by groups of unsavoury kids. Whose to say that providing more playgrounds will make the situation any different.
Like I say, what is extraordinary about the LDA masterplan?
Will it pay for a fantastic new museum? Will it fund the complete restoration of the terraces and the statues? Will it make the park safe?
Will we really have the boats back? What is going to provide ongoing funding so that we are not in this dire position in a few more years?
Just because I hate the rent a mob, I am not going to stop asking these questions. Like I say what is so extraordinary about this masterplan that we need housing to pay for it?
One point in question is of course the farm. I along with many others agreed to the housing in order to get the farm back. Pat says it will be open for a few hours a day. How deffinate is this? I heard rumours of it opening for only an hour or an hour and a half each day. This as far as I am concerned not be worth giving up parkland for housing for.
Then what - more trees, more plants, better paths and more playgrounds. This is surely just park stuff - and doesn't need huge revenue to pay for it
The present playground is often monopolised by groups of unsavoury kids. Whose to say that providing more playgrounds will make the situation any different.
Like I say, what is extraordinary about the LDA masterplan?
Will it pay for a fantastic new museum? Will it fund the complete restoration of the terraces and the statues? Will it make the park safe?
Will we really have the boats back? What is going to provide ongoing funding so that we are not in this dire position in a few more years?
Just because I hate the rent a mob, I am not going to stop asking these questions. Like I say what is so extraordinary about this masterplan that we need housing to pay for it?
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
Anyone receiving the latest Park News issued by the London Development Agency will read that the farm is due to open from the beginning of October.
It will open 300 days a year from 10.30 till noon on weekdays and between 3 to 4.30 (on summer afternoons) and between 2.30 to 4 pm (in winter). It will close for two weeks over Christmas and New Year.
With regard to the rest of the questions asked by Outcast. Capital expenditure will be required to relay the awful paths - soupy when wet, and so dusty when dry. The Terraces (Grade 2 listed) will be restored. A lot of money is also required to make the park DDA compliant - there is a very steep gradient within a small park to be overcome for wheelchair users and the like. The ugly concrete Central Axis will be removed and a new central walkway will be soft landscaped into this area and, yes, the boats will be back. The tarmac car parking area in the centre of the park will go and be soft landscaped and there will be a new water system within the park, which will filter and recycle the water within the park.
I hold up my hands to overall being in favour of the Masterplan for the park, having been part of the community/Bromley/LDA dialogue group over the past 5 years. It has not all been easy and there have been a number of contentious issues. However, all in all, if most of the LDA's ideas are carried through I think we will have a park of which to be proud.
There will be plenty of opportunity to see what is planned when the LDA's exhibition opens in October as part of the public consultation process. At this stage everyone interested will be able to comment on the plans, either favourably or unfavourably. These comments will form part of the report to Bromley's planning committee when the proposals are considered sometime during late 2008.
It will open 300 days a year from 10.30 till noon on weekdays and between 3 to 4.30 (on summer afternoons) and between 2.30 to 4 pm (in winter). It will close for two weeks over Christmas and New Year.
With regard to the rest of the questions asked by Outcast. Capital expenditure will be required to relay the awful paths - soupy when wet, and so dusty when dry. The Terraces (Grade 2 listed) will be restored. A lot of money is also required to make the park DDA compliant - there is a very steep gradient within a small park to be overcome for wheelchair users and the like. The ugly concrete Central Axis will be removed and a new central walkway will be soft landscaped into this area and, yes, the boats will be back. The tarmac car parking area in the centre of the park will go and be soft landscaped and there will be a new water system within the park, which will filter and recycle the water within the park.
I hold up my hands to overall being in favour of the Masterplan for the park, having been part of the community/Bromley/LDA dialogue group over the past 5 years. It has not all been easy and there have been a number of contentious issues. However, all in all, if most of the LDA's ideas are carried through I think we will have a park of which to be proud.
There will be plenty of opportunity to see what is planned when the LDA's exhibition opens in October as part of the public consultation process. At this stage everyone interested will be able to comment on the plans, either favourably or unfavourably. These comments will form part of the report to Bromley's planning committee when the proposals are considered sometime during late 2008.
A lot of money is also required to make the park DDA compliant - there is a very steep gradient within a small park to be overcome for wheelchair users and the like.
What does “overcome the steep gradient” mean? I hope that they aren’t planning on flattening out the paths, those few steep sections of path are the reason I use the park. You need somewhere that you can run up a hill without getting choked on diesel fumes.
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
The masterplan proposals include the creation of two new sunken gardens on the Italian Terraces. These will have full disabled access, with new entrances from the centre of the park, where the old stairways to the terraces used to be, and will form a series of sloping ramps inside up to the terraces themselves. An imaginative way of overcoming what is a very steep gradient to enable access for all.
You can keep on running, Kster. There will still be plenty of space for you to run uphill.
You can keep on running, Kster. There will still be plenty of space for you to run uphill.
May I ask, if its not too trivial a question... does anyone know what will happen to the Cafe? I would hope that the current leasees will be encouraged to change the menu (I don't want anyone to lose their livelyhood) - at the moment its 'burgers and hotdogs' and weak nescafe in a polestyrene cup - but there is such potential there to make it great. Its got a big kitchen and a much larger seating area than Dulwich Park Cafe which serves a great fresh menu full of healthy choices. I'm sure it would be much more profitable for the current owners if it were to have an overhaul, I don't see many people eating in there at present.
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
All current buildings within the park are well past their sell-by date, including the cafe. There is the intention to have a dinosaur interpretation centre, which will combine with a cafe, toilets and boathouse around the site of the current cafe.
Nothing will happen immediately - the proposals for the Masterplan will need to be approved and then detailed applications will have to be submitted for decision prior to any major demolition and rebuild within the park.
I dont know the terms of the present lease of the cafe but would expect that any new facility will be subject to criteria which will be laid down in a new lease agreed between the successful applicant and the LDA. Hopefully this would include a more varied menu than at present.
Nothing will happen immediately - the proposals for the Masterplan will need to be approved and then detailed applications will have to be submitted for decision prior to any major demolition and rebuild within the park.
I dont know the terms of the present lease of the cafe but would expect that any new facility will be subject to criteria which will be laid down in a new lease agreed between the successful applicant and the LDA. Hopefully this would include a more varied menu than at present.