I was really quite saddened by the response of some to the distinct possibility that the Greyhound might be demolished and the site, including the carpark, be redeveloped. The carpark and some of the lesser extensions to the pub could well be developed. The hope of many of us is that the important parts of the Greyhound might be preserved and restored within the new estate. That, certainly, is what I would hope for. Incidentally, if that were to happen gillyjp's concerns about the "droning noise of their kitchen fan" would be solved because she would probably have a block of flats between the pub and her house.
It was made clear at the beginning of this thread that the problems with the pub are primarily to do with the management. Complaints about "none existing down pipes or half broken ones that drip rain straight onto the payvement in Spring HIll [gillyjp]" and the "pub has a fixed client group and all attempts to change it has failed [simono]" are irrelevant and unhelpful. simono even admits that "people with vision taking the risk" can turn a pub around. It worked with the Dolphin (with which, incidentally, the Sydenham Society was closely involved); why not try for something similar with the Greyhound. With strong local support, it might happen.
The alternative is blocks of flats as dense and cheap as the developers can get away with incorporating, perhaps, a token bar called the Greyhound.
The Greyhound
I am sure the owners of the Dolphin would welcome some healthy competition from a copy establishment at the Greyhound ?? Would they support it?
Does no one think that all the money that various Pub operators have invested in the Greyhound over the last 20 years , and the umpteen different managers and Landlords, all to a man and women "have not been interested" ??? The Dolphin is an assett and should be comended , but every pub in the area can not possibly follow suit in a similar ilk. There is room for all sorts of differing establishments with all sorts of clientelle. The Greyhound has failed. It is unfair to talk about a "token bar called the Greyhound" is this comment based on fact? Why would the developers want to make cheap flats? Surely there are planning policies and process and a development plan that dictate how much should be alowed to be built on a site, protecting the rights and amenities of the adjacent and effected neighbours and what buildings should be protected from demolition for there archtectural or historic value. Yes ,the Greyhound has been on the site since the 1700's, but guess what? In various guises and differing buildings, its been knocked down before and rebuilt to suit the needs of that time. I can not see any thing wrong with a well thought out redevelopment as a new Land mark into Sydenham with a New Greyhound that is better suited to its neighbours and our times. I agree we need to protect our heritage, but The Greyhound in its present state? I dont see it.
Does no one think that all the money that various Pub operators have invested in the Greyhound over the last 20 years , and the umpteen different managers and Landlords, all to a man and women "have not been interested" ??? The Dolphin is an assett and should be comended , but every pub in the area can not possibly follow suit in a similar ilk. There is room for all sorts of differing establishments with all sorts of clientelle. The Greyhound has failed. It is unfair to talk about a "token bar called the Greyhound" is this comment based on fact? Why would the developers want to make cheap flats? Surely there are planning policies and process and a development plan that dictate how much should be alowed to be built on a site, protecting the rights and amenities of the adjacent and effected neighbours and what buildings should be protected from demolition for there archtectural or historic value. Yes ,the Greyhound has been on the site since the 1700's, but guess what? In various guises and differing buildings, its been knocked down before and rebuilt to suit the needs of that time. I can not see any thing wrong with a well thought out redevelopment as a new Land mark into Sydenham with a New Greyhound that is better suited to its neighbours and our times. I agree we need to protect our heritage, but The Greyhound in its present state? I dont see it.
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JAKES ANGEL
- Posts: 30
- Joined: 14 Mar 2005 16:13
- Location: sydenham
I totally agree with Jules and I dont think her comments are rude at all. As other people have commented on this thread, this pub could be a success story if managed correctly as has been proven by the owners of the Dolphin. Also without trying to sound patronising, if you happen to be part of the social housing scheme for whatever reason and you are given a property then surely you cant expect to rant and rave about the position in which it is located. Agreed everyone has the right to a decent enviroment but I had to purchase my house and it is in a nice road granted but it has two hostels either side of it, but thats life get on with it and if you really think you've got problems now, wait till they convert it into flats and have people with their gardens backing onto you with no closing time at least the pub shuts at 11:00pm rant over.
The Greyhound
I am not ranting and raving about it. All I am asking for is that I may be afforded the same right as everyone else to the peaceful occupation of my home.
If that means challenging anti social behaviour in whatever form - I consider that is my right as a law abiding citizen. Whether I be a local authority tenant, an owner occupier or a shared owner or a private tenant.
The point I was trying to make you have clearly missed. This was, you cannot just assume (as Jules did) that people have a choice in where they live. Why should I be castigated for simply requiring people to abide by common decency and consideration for others and understand how their anti social behaviour affects those living in close proximity. What are you suggesting then - that we should allow people to just carry on making an extreme nuisance of themselves - if we are complacent and timid about these matters where and when will it end?
Unfortuantely we haven't all got nice little bolt holes down on the Med somewhere, where we can escape.
If that means challenging anti social behaviour in whatever form - I consider that is my right as a law abiding citizen. Whether I be a local authority tenant, an owner occupier or a shared owner or a private tenant.
The point I was trying to make you have clearly missed. This was, you cannot just assume (as Jules did) that people have a choice in where they live. Why should I be castigated for simply requiring people to abide by common decency and consideration for others and understand how their anti social behaviour affects those living in close proximity. What are you suggesting then - that we should allow people to just carry on making an extreme nuisance of themselves - if we are complacent and timid about these matters where and when will it end?
Unfortuantely we haven't all got nice little bolt holes down on the Med somewhere, where we can escape.
How many people fight, fornicate , deal drugs and rev car engines in there back gardens at 11 at night, some maybe, but I cant believe its that many?
Is the real issue here that some people dont like Affordable/Housing Association housing ? At no point has GillyJp complained about her house, or its location all she has said is that her home is next to a problem Pub, Any redevelopment of the Greyhound would have to mix private sale and affordable housing , surely thats a good thing? Especialy with a decent Pub at the front !
Is the real issue here that some people dont like Affordable/Housing Association housing ? At no point has GillyJp complained about her house, or its location all she has said is that her home is next to a problem Pub, Any redevelopment of the Greyhound would have to mix private sale and affordable housing , surely thats a good thing? Especialy with a decent Pub at the front !
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
I believe it is. If you follow the link in annabel mclaren's post near the beginning of this thread you will see that the draft plans included a new pub within the development. I've seen these plans and the pub was modest and uninspired. The developers used the term "heritage" but apparently that simply meant it would be called "The Greyhound". I think "token bar" was a fair description.Dutch Cow wrote:It is unfair to talk about a "token bar called the Greyhound" is this comment based on fact?
As far as I can establish the pub has never been knocked down and rebuilt. The Greyhound is made up of extensions and additions to existing buildings. There are <pictures from the 1830s> that show a building (of perhaps 1780) which survives, at least in part, to this day although it is almost completely hidden behind subsequent extensions. The final part of what could well have been the original timber building was demolished as recently as the mid 1990s.Dutch Cow wrote:... the Greyhound has been on the site since the 1700's, but guess what? In various guises and differing buildings, its been knocked down before and rebuilt to suit the needs of that time
It is this accretion of styles from the 1780s or earlier to the present day (although the 20th century has not been kind) that make the building interesting and, in my view, worth trying to preserve.
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Whilst Dutch Cow has *bumped* this ever-popular topic I'd like to add my view, if I may be permitted.
Being one of the most vehement and opinionated (shall we say, odious) snobs on this forum I have a little pang when it comes to The Greyhound. I'm a staunch supporter of the correct clientele it now attracts and the type of establishment that The Dolphin has become and it's great that it's my local. I feel rather proud to take my family and friends there when they come to visit our leafy and hilly patch of London.
That stated I feel The Greyhound could actually best The Dolphin were it to be renovated in the same sympathetic manner and by the proper type of person (owner wise). I often imagine the 'kerb appeal' of entering The Greyhound via the tiled original hotel entrance...wow! And I can confirm that it is still there in most of it's entirety given that I've seen it with my own eyes in the last year.
It would also suit a need. By that I mean just look at the amount of views my posts 'Middle Class Pub' and 'The Dolphin' have created - there's your demand from ABC1's, no argument can be made as to how many ABC1's are in SE26. It's not as if the problematic oiks from Lower and Upper Sydenam don't have other places to go. Those 'we' don't like to socialise with from the Wells Park Estate in Upper Sydenham still have plenty of choice and my own undesirables from the Paxton Estate/Home Park Estate in Lower Sydenham have soon got the message that The Dolphin is not for them.
In that sense those from Upper Sydenham could go to T.G. and those from Lower Sydenham could go to T.D. (or nip across the railway bridge). That still leaves plenty (still far too man in my opinion) of chicken-in-a-basket and WKD pubs for them and two great Gastropubs for us.
Being one of the most vehement and opinionated (shall we say, odious) snobs on this forum I have a little pang when it comes to The Greyhound. I'm a staunch supporter of the correct clientele it now attracts and the type of establishment that The Dolphin has become and it's great that it's my local. I feel rather proud to take my family and friends there when they come to visit our leafy and hilly patch of London.
That stated I feel The Greyhound could actually best The Dolphin were it to be renovated in the same sympathetic manner and by the proper type of person (owner wise). I often imagine the 'kerb appeal' of entering The Greyhound via the tiled original hotel entrance...wow! And I can confirm that it is still there in most of it's entirety given that I've seen it with my own eyes in the last year.
It would also suit a need. By that I mean just look at the amount of views my posts 'Middle Class Pub' and 'The Dolphin' have created - there's your demand from ABC1's, no argument can be made as to how many ABC1's are in SE26. It's not as if the problematic oiks from Lower and Upper Sydenam don't have other places to go. Those 'we' don't like to socialise with from the Wells Park Estate in Upper Sydenham still have plenty of choice and my own undesirables from the Paxton Estate/Home Park Estate in Lower Sydenham have soon got the message that The Dolphin is not for them.
In that sense those from Upper Sydenham could go to T.G. and those from Lower Sydenham could go to T.D. (or nip across the railway bridge). That still leaves plenty (still far too man in my opinion) of chicken-in-a-basket and WKD pubs for them and two great Gastropubs for us.
If the Greyhound could be preserved (and it must surely be) then maybe a lovely garden for the pub could be created on some of what is currently concrete carpark. There would surely still be room for some housing as well because its a massive area. The whole area needs a bit more greenery - that's a big part of the reason that it has no appeal for me personally. I don't want to feel I'm just sitting by a big concrete roundabout.
I reckon if this pub was then revamped and run properly along the likes of the Dolphin it would be majorly popular with families and such and could make a fortune for whoever was running it. With two decent pubs to go out to as well as some more decent retaurants the whole area could attract more clientele, in the way that Crystal Palace and East Dulwich already do.
This area including the Greyound is very important as it is the 'gateway' to Sydenham and it would be wrong to demolish it. It could possibly affect the whole regeneration of this area of Sydenham is this was replaced with some bog standard housing and an awful bar. Whatever happens the whole site needs to be developed in a high quality way.
I reckon if this pub was then revamped and run properly along the likes of the Dolphin it would be majorly popular with families and such and could make a fortune for whoever was running it. With two decent pubs to go out to as well as some more decent retaurants the whole area could attract more clientele, in the way that Crystal Palace and East Dulwich already do.
This area including the Greyound is very important as it is the 'gateway' to Sydenham and it would be wrong to demolish it. It could possibly affect the whole regeneration of this area of Sydenham is this was replaced with some bog standard housing and an awful bar. Whatever happens the whole site needs to be developed in a high quality way.
Ah Greg you're back - the Forum's been quieter and duller without you. I don't think you need to ask for permission to air your views, however odious.
I walked past the Greyhound yesterday, and briefly popped in, and I couldn't help but reflect that there is so much potential there. It currently looks far too bleak and charmless, both inside and outside, but (in addition to whatever improvements are made to the roundabout in the coming months) if the inside were sympathetically refurbished and some nice benches, hanging baskets, and perhaps some wooden fences or something put up to mask the sight, smell and sound of the traffic, then it could all look so much better.
The Dolphin is a bit too far away for many people (at least 15 minutes walk for me) but its still been a massive success since its rebirth, so I think there is quite comfortably a large enough market to support another gastro-pub (of course, not every pub in the area can follow the Dolphin's lead but it has created a model that others could follow).
Whilst the Greyhound has failed, under different guises, for many years now, that does not mean to say that it is forever doomed to fail and should be bulldozed - there are now far more (for want of a better phrase) middle class people in search of a middle class pub than there were, and there are likely to be more in the future. One of Sydenham's great attractions is its great variety of buildings from a wide range of periods, so we shouldn't be knocking down one of the most historic sights we have. Under the right management, commercial reality and historical preservation need not be at odds.
I walked past the Greyhound yesterday, and briefly popped in, and I couldn't help but reflect that there is so much potential there. It currently looks far too bleak and charmless, both inside and outside, but (in addition to whatever improvements are made to the roundabout in the coming months) if the inside were sympathetically refurbished and some nice benches, hanging baskets, and perhaps some wooden fences or something put up to mask the sight, smell and sound of the traffic, then it could all look so much better.
The Dolphin is a bit too far away for many people (at least 15 minutes walk for me) but its still been a massive success since its rebirth, so I think there is quite comfortably a large enough market to support another gastro-pub (of course, not every pub in the area can follow the Dolphin's lead but it has created a model that others could follow).
Whilst the Greyhound has failed, under different guises, for many years now, that does not mean to say that it is forever doomed to fail and should be bulldozed - there are now far more (for want of a better phrase) middle class people in search of a middle class pub than there were, and there are likely to be more in the future. One of Sydenham's great attractions is its great variety of buildings from a wide range of periods, so we shouldn't be knocking down one of the most historic sights we have. Under the right management, commercial reality and historical preservation need not be at odds.