The inhabitants of Telegraph Hill (in Brockley) are currently getting themselves into a real stew about an article which has recently appeared about the increased gentrification of large areas of London.
http://www.iwca.info/cutedge/ce0006d.htm
The article argues (using Telegraph Hill as an example) that gentrification, far from benefiting the mass of the population, only benefits the incoming middle class who organise the area's resources (schools, social provision, entertainments, shops etc) to benefit themselves.
Obviously, Sydenham has a long way to go before we reach the gentrification levels of Balham, Clapham or Telegraph Hill. But all the signs are that Sydenham is heading rapidly down this track. Starting prices of £400,000 for a terraced house in SE26 aren't exactly socially inclusive.
I've spent a sleepless night worrying that by listening to Schubert in a gastropub in SE26 on Wednesday night I might be acting in a socially divisive manner. Should I be concerned?
How will gentrification change Sydenham?
But User100 how can I end my social isolation and not spend my leisure hours attempting to alter Sydenham to fit in with my middle class needs?
I have lived in Sydenham for over 30 years. I know 50% of the inhabitants of my street by name and I’m involved in a whole mass of local groups and organisations. 99% of our shopping is done on Sydenham Road. The problem is that I move almost exclusively amongst people “like myself”. When I remarked to my wife, just the other day that, apart from our cleaner and gardener, I simply didn’t know anyone who isn’t middle class, my wife paused briefly from her reading of The Guardian to jab me sharply in the ribs and say” Barry, don’t be so stupid!”
But it remains true. I live (like most of us, I suspect) in a socially-exclusive bubble. What’s tonight’s social event? Well it’s a toss up between the opera and the quiz at Sydenham Tennis Club. Last night it was watching the staff at The Dolphin being hammered at cricket by another local team then onto the rugby club committee meeting. Not surprising I meet people only like myself is it?
And when I attend my local park user’s group, expecting to find at least some of the "ordinary people" I see using the park daily, what do I find? Hold on - isn’t that the retired GP and her ex-professorial husband running the group? And isn’t the secretary that bloke who told me at the Thorpes' Residents Meeting that he knew Gordon Brown personally? There's not a prole in sight.
Can anyone please help me break out of my socially-exclusive bubble? And please don't suggest an evening at The Geyhound!!
I have lived in Sydenham for over 30 years. I know 50% of the inhabitants of my street by name and I’m involved in a whole mass of local groups and organisations. 99% of our shopping is done on Sydenham Road. The problem is that I move almost exclusively amongst people “like myself”. When I remarked to my wife, just the other day that, apart from our cleaner and gardener, I simply didn’t know anyone who isn’t middle class, my wife paused briefly from her reading of The Guardian to jab me sharply in the ribs and say” Barry, don’t be so stupid!”
But it remains true. I live (like most of us, I suspect) in a socially-exclusive bubble. What’s tonight’s social event? Well it’s a toss up between the opera and the quiz at Sydenham Tennis Club. Last night it was watching the staff at The Dolphin being hammered at cricket by another local team then onto the rugby club committee meeting. Not surprising I meet people only like myself is it?
And when I attend my local park user’s group, expecting to find at least some of the "ordinary people" I see using the park daily, what do I find? Hold on - isn’t that the retired GP and her ex-professorial husband running the group? And isn’t the secretary that bloke who told me at the Thorpes' Residents Meeting that he knew Gordon Brown personally? There's not a prole in sight.
Can anyone please help me break out of my socially-exclusive bubble? And please don't suggest an evening at The Geyhound!!
Try drinking in the Prince Alfred, the Wednesday night quiz is quite easy to win. You can meet the likes of the Colonel, the famous Death brothers and a few friendly Poles.
Take up betting and hang out at Ladbrokes, you get all sorts in there and there is a distinct feeling of community; free sandwiches and biscuits on big race days.
Take up betting and hang out at Ladbrokes, you get all sorts in there and there is a distinct feeling of community; free sandwiches and biscuits on big race days.
True. Or get an allotment - you will meet people from a range of social classes - working class and middle class, although highly unlikely to meet any peers of the realm.
Hmm, its a funny one alright. I guess a lot of clubs and societies are middle class oriented, although local schools and church groups probably have the whole mix. Not much point in trying to hang out with the working class just for the sake of it though is there? If your heart isn't in it you won't go anywhere with it.
Question is - do the working class people want middle class people targetting them for friendship / acquaintanceship? Hmm, I doubt it somehow.
And why exactly do you want to get some new prole pals? Is it to make yourself feel better, or is it to widen your horizons, sonehow reduce class divisions, or what?
I am not having a go at you personally by any means, your heart seems to be in the right place.
Sounds like you are doing your best to make Sydenham a better place, fair play to you. Maybe the best thing to do is to try to make some of the clubs / socs you are involved with more accessible / attractive to non-middle class people. I'm sure you are best placed to think about how to do that in a realistic way, and I think it would be a worthwhile thing to do for all concerned.
Hmm, its a funny one alright. I guess a lot of clubs and societies are middle class oriented, although local schools and church groups probably have the whole mix. Not much point in trying to hang out with the working class just for the sake of it though is there? If your heart isn't in it you won't go anywhere with it.
Question is - do the working class people want middle class people targetting them for friendship / acquaintanceship? Hmm, I doubt it somehow.
And why exactly do you want to get some new prole pals? Is it to make yourself feel better, or is it to widen your horizons, sonehow reduce class divisions, or what?
I am not having a go at you personally by any means, your heart seems to be in the right place.
Sounds like you are doing your best to make Sydenham a better place, fair play to you. Maybe the best thing to do is to try to make some of the clubs / socs you are involved with more accessible / attractive to non-middle class people. I'm sure you are best placed to think about how to do that in a realistic way, and I think it would be a worthwhile thing to do for all concerned.
maybe the proles are avoiding you mate.
That article is so accurate the only people who live in london zone 1 or 2 are the very rich who can afford houses and private schools and the very poor with no choice
gentrification kills individuality to get that rich you have to conform or be born with it.
You want to see london zone 1-3 in 5 years go to manhattan/zurich/monaco it's dead like notting hill.
That article is so accurate the only people who live in london zone 1 or 2 are the very rich who can afford houses and private schools and the very poor with no choice
gentrification kills individuality to get that rich you have to conform or be born with it.
You want to see london zone 1-3 in 5 years go to manhattan/zurich/monaco it's dead like notting hill.
would prefer to live in manhattan than catford!
i know lots of people living in zone 1 and 2 who are neither excessively rich or very poor. some of them are very dull conformists and some ar enot. i also have to say i think your attitude on conformity is perverse. many rich people are rich precisely becasue they are contrarian and non-conformist. they also tend to direct their energy in a way that is creative and constructive.
why is it that this country is so obsessed by class. who cares? just because you are born working class does not make you noble...likewise being born middle class does not make you automatically more intelligent or interesting.
gentrification can be a bad thing because change can be bad... but it is better than stagnation and it is better than degeneration.
i know lots of people living in zone 1 and 2 who are neither excessively rich or very poor. some of them are very dull conformists and some ar enot. i also have to say i think your attitude on conformity is perverse. many rich people are rich precisely becasue they are contrarian and non-conformist. they also tend to direct their energy in a way that is creative and constructive.
why is it that this country is so obsessed by class. who cares? just because you are born working class does not make you noble...likewise being born middle class does not make you automatically more intelligent or interesting.
gentrification can be a bad thing because change can be bad... but it is better than stagnation and it is better than degeneration.
THE QUEEN ADELAIDE!!!!!!!
my god is that hole still active?
I used to live yards from it, it was one of the problems that drove me away from London
What a dive, 90% of the crime in the area had something to do with that pub, to say nothing of the contribution to the general running down of the area, peeing in shop doorways and far worse in the shrubbery behind.
I went in there once only
WHAT a frightening experience, and I`m no violet.
plastic beer glasses, the cold stare, the inevitable unanswerable question
"you looking at my bird pal?"
my god is that hole still active?
I used to live yards from it, it was one of the problems that drove me away from London
What a dive, 90% of the crime in the area had something to do with that pub, to say nothing of the contribution to the general running down of the area, peeing in shop doorways and far worse in the shrubbery behind.
I went in there once only
WHAT a frightening experience, and I`m no violet.
plastic beer glasses, the cold stare, the inevitable unanswerable question
"you looking at my bird pal?"
WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY GENTRIFICATION
I dont care if house prices go up or down,a s long as they all do the same thing it doesn't matter unnless you are a first time buyer, which I was 6 years ago.
As for the types of shops,I'd love a pub that does great sunday roasts, is family oriented, friendly, clean and a nice place to speand a few hours.
I'd like a collection of individual nice cafes to sit in with a cup of tea and homemade cake, or coffee. I'd like that cafe local, individual, light and airy, with seats outside, and i'd like it to look great without a huge perspex illuminated sign (AND NO STARBUCKS).
I'd liek a small bakers thatmake their own bread, perhaps a deli, a butchers who knows my name when I go in there and doesnt charge the earth, but can offer 'somethign special' when I need it. I'd love individual shops that sell stuff i can't get anywhere else, or even a local market.
I am not a fan of chains, but I wouldn't mind a pizza express if I had to choose one, and I'd like a small family run bistro, not too expensive, good good honest food, nothing too fancy.
I'd love a selection of the above alongside decent greasy spoons cafes, a junk shop etc. They can co-exist. And i'd love them to be a credit to Sydenham high street to bring back some of the glory of what it used to look like years ago before original shop fronts, signs and canopies were changed to bright plastic boxes.
If that means it's gentrified, then yes, I think that gentrification is a good thing.
As for the types of shops,I'd love a pub that does great sunday roasts, is family oriented, friendly, clean and a nice place to speand a few hours.
I'd like a collection of individual nice cafes to sit in with a cup of tea and homemade cake, or coffee. I'd like that cafe local, individual, light and airy, with seats outside, and i'd like it to look great without a huge perspex illuminated sign (AND NO STARBUCKS).
I'd liek a small bakers thatmake their own bread, perhaps a deli, a butchers who knows my name when I go in there and doesnt charge the earth, but can offer 'somethign special' when I need it. I'd love individual shops that sell stuff i can't get anywhere else, or even a local market.
I am not a fan of chains, but I wouldn't mind a pizza express if I had to choose one, and I'd like a small family run bistro, not too expensive, good good honest food, nothing too fancy.
I'd love a selection of the above alongside decent greasy spoons cafes, a junk shop etc. They can co-exist. And i'd love them to be a credit to Sydenham high street to bring back some of the glory of what it used to look like years ago before original shop fronts, signs and canopies were changed to bright plastic boxes.
If that means it's gentrified, then yes, I think that gentrification is a good thing.
i just want sydenham to be well balanced ..yes i would like nice places to eat and drink without having to worry about groups of people kicking off ..i also would like to see a few of the pound shops go ..howeve i do see myself as working class and it would be wrong and dangerous to out price the people of sydenham that are the unfortunate end of the wage scale ..i soemtimes when i used to walk into the greyhound you could witness an eclectic mix of people from all backgrounds enjoying a pint ..i would like to see that contine everywhere in sydenham
^^^^
Exactly. Some people are mixing gentrification up with 'making something grotty and infriendly and substandard nice'.
Gentrificatoin woudl mean that a sunday lunch in one of these places woudl cost £15.
Get behind the change for better, stop talking it down. Sydenham is for everyone. I think it's insulting to think that the 'working class' don't enjoy nice suroundings. Working class DOESN'T mean you only eat fried chicken and stella.
Exactly. Some people are mixing gentrification up with 'making something grotty and infriendly and substandard nice'.
Gentrificatoin woudl mean that a sunday lunch in one of these places woudl cost £15.
Get behind the change for better, stop talking it down. Sydenham is for everyone. I think it's insulting to think that the 'working class' don't enjoy nice suroundings. Working class DOESN'T mean you only eat fried chicken and stella.
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annabel mclaren
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 19:55
- Location: thorpes
Hi Lee - some of what you're asking for in the post above exists in Sydenham - but as the area is a bit spread out the shops can be some way from each other... for instance Home Park Butchers has organic meat (friends say as good as the E Dulwich butcher but as I've not been there I can't say); they're virtually opposite Sydenham Library. Further down, just before The Bell, the Old Bath House has fantastic junk (architectural salvage to give it a posh name!), while up in Kirkdale despite the ups and downs of the antique trade one or two interesting shops survive - Behind the Boxes (30s and art deco) and Avalon, for fireplaces. Slatters on the corner of Mayow Road is an independent bakers who bake on the premises and have a good variety of bread; and there's no shortage of great veg, fruit and salads from Fresh and Fruity, the Alwar Market (opp the end of Newlands Park) etc. Plus there are plenty of cafes to sit in - and with Blue Mountain opening soon the choice will get even better.
That sounds great. But as you said they are spread out. That's why supermarkets do well, they are a high street under one roof.
I have been to a lot of houses and flats in the area recently (I'm looking to move here from Brockley), most people selling have been in the area a long time and are moving out of london for more space. They all say that once you didn't have to go anywhere else but Sydenham high street for all your shopping and it felt like a nice place to be. People go to shopping malls becasue there is a huge selection of different shops selling things people who like shopping malls like. Sydenham doesnt have that, it has bits. To really be a 'proper' high street it needs CHOICE and to be a DESTINATION where people come because you can't get it anywhere else. I think Sydenham will be like that again one day...but it will take a LOT longer than you will imagine. Look at brockley and all the press that has had, and in the last 6 years only a tiny handfull of new cafes and shops have opened.
I have been to a lot of houses and flats in the area recently (I'm looking to move here from Brockley), most people selling have been in the area a long time and are moving out of london for more space. They all say that once you didn't have to go anywhere else but Sydenham high street for all your shopping and it felt like a nice place to be. People go to shopping malls becasue there is a huge selection of different shops selling things people who like shopping malls like. Sydenham doesnt have that, it has bits. To really be a 'proper' high street it needs CHOICE and to be a DESTINATION where people come because you can't get it anywhere else. I think Sydenham will be like that again one day...but it will take a LOT longer than you will imagine. Look at brockley and all the press that has had, and in the last 6 years only a tiny handfull of new cafes and shops have opened.