Forest Hill Elisnore Road Incident Meeting

[CaptainCarCrash]

I think you are wrong Lee and here is why, you chose to use one of the poorest countries in terms of poverty in the world for your example. I don't think this thread should be locked, because if it is it would be akin to grotesque censorship, however I can agree that calling the police murderers to be strong and not really what I would chose to say because it is a bit of a sweeping statement and it's unfair on the police as a whole but you must also realise that incidents such as this will case people to react.

[CaptainCarCrash]

I see a street brawl happening - Quick call the police

No point, they won't turn up until it's all over.

[bensonby]

incidents such as this will case people to react.

I don't really see, with the information that has been made public thus far, how this incident is anything other than a lawful use of force by the police officers involved. Therefore there is no need for any kind of "reaction".

Obviously the circumstances need to be investigated: which they are being. There really isn't anything else to discuss to be honest.

[CaptainCarCrash]

incidents such as this will case people to react.

I don't really see, with the information that has been made public thus far, how this incident is anything other than a lawful use of force by the police officers involved. Therefore there is no need for any kind of "reaction".

Obviously the circumstances need to be investigated: which they are being. There really isn't anything else to discuss to be honest.

No? well I and countless others in the country disagree. But for the sake of equilibrium I'm prepared to drop it.

Only because it's you though

[bensonby]

Further to my last: it might be useful to very briefly outline how shooting someone can be perfectly "lawful".

The law covering self defence, which applies to anyone - police or not, is outlined in Common Law. A signal case is R Vs Beckford 1988 - where, actually, a police officer shot an induvidual. It was held that a person may use "reasonable force to protect himself, others for whom he is responsible and his property. It must be reasonable."

Where there is a immediate and significant threat to life then, clearly, this use of force may be lethal. Additionally, "A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike." (Beckford)

Hence, if you are running at me with a knife, or pointing a gun at me, etc. then I may well be justified in shooting you and my actions may well be lawful.

[bensonby]

incidents such as this will case people to react.

I don't really see, with the information that has been made public thus far, how this incident is anything other than a lawful use of force by the police officers involved. Therefore there is no need for any kind of "reaction".

Obviously the circumstances need to be investigated: which they are being. There really isn't anything else to discuss to be honest.

No? well I and countless others in the country disagree. But for the sake of equilibrium I'm prepared to drop it.

Only because it's you though

Seriously, what is there to discuss? Is there anything in the initial information that is public that gives specific cause for concern?

Let's see what the investigation discloses.

I've always said that if there was some massive conspiracy to murder people then a) why are more people killed at the hands of the police? and b) surely it would be done with a rather more competent cover-up.

We have one of the most regulated and policed police services in the world. And so should we.

[CaptainCarCrash]

We have one of the most regulated and policed police services in the world. And so should we.

Eh?

[bensonby]

It's late (or even early) and I'm tired. You know what I mean.

[Annie]

I was going to write a full and detailed rebuttal. I might yet, but to be frank I can't be bothered. I doubt you'd listen to any reason and are set in your bitter and twisted ways.


All I can say is that I pity you Lisa. You seem to live in a very bitter, warped and ignorant little world.

Bitter & twisted!!! Doubt you know the meaning...you fool!!

My husband said he'd like to meet you alone in person, However, I suspect you are one of these coward coppers who will hide behind his dirty corrupt badge. And if you are a copper, I'd doubt you'd have the courage to come alone.

Take your head out of the sand or out of wherever else you have it in.

Fancy putting a threat in writing! haha

[Sydenham]

Would anybody who was at the meeting care to write a summary of what happened - what was discussed; general mood etc.

The sort of thing I'd have looked to read in the local newspaper, when they used to exist.

DId many turn up? What were the questions/ Who spoke?

[bensonby]

Michael posted on page two of this thread some bits from the meeting:

I'm not sure I can do justice to a two hour meeting and I'm not sure that all of the audience were fully reassured by the very limited facts that were made available. But here are some of the notes I made during the meeting:

I have already referred to how tazers might not always be effective.
Time between the arrive of local police and the arrival of armed response team appears to have been 13 minutes.
Police will be arresting the man who was shot, once he is well enough. IPCC will interview him after that.
Officers who discharged their weapons have provided written statements for the IPCC and are not on active duty (standard procedure after weapons discharge). They can be interviewed further by the IPCC later, possibly under caution if necessary.
Police were pleased with the public response and the 'wealth of evidence' in this case.
There has been an increased police presence in the area since the incident to reassure the public and to ensure witnesses came forward.
The man who was shot lives very locally to the incident.
No police officers or other members of the public were wounded.

The police did not detail anything about what happened but there were two neighbours who witnessed part of the scene. Some of this evidence was possibly contradictory (did he have more than one knife), but the scene was described as 'chaotic' immediately after shots were fired, with 'no one in control'.

Edit: Removed link to article that was about a previous meeting held on Monday, not today.

In circumstances like this the police aren't really allowed to disclose much in the way of information. Any information that does come out generally comes from the IPCC.

Detective Chief Superintendent Jeremy Burton, the Borough Commander for Lewisham Police was at the meeting. I'm not sure who else was there as I wasn't at the meeting.

[Sydenham]

Thanks for highlighting this previous post to me - I missed it as I browsed through the thread (not sure how though).

[perryman]

Thanks Michael,
The bit about the tazers is quite interesting, but not very good value for a 2 hour meeting.

The way to reassure the public is to have this fully investigated as soon as possible.
This is in everyone's interest.
They should square off the officers reports against the witness statements and evidence then publicly report the findings - ideally within a few weeks.

If an officer was indeed under significant threat and the guy was taken down in a controlled and clinical way, then that is pretty much the end of it, although the police might want to review their procedures into why an officer was put in such danger in the first place.

I would have thought dealing with people with knives is fairly routine for Lewisham police, so something went wrong this time, imo.

[Barry]

The IPCC smokescreen will make its findings public, saying the police acted properly - you'll see!

Perhaps the police DID act properly, in which case the IPCC will have reported correctly.

The IPCC are not known for supporting the police regardless of the facts. You can check this by the recent prosecutions of police officers for incidents on duty, driving, assaults, perverting justice etc.

They are independent, they are not perfect, you could probably do a much better job, Lisa.

[michael]

A video of the entire Kilmorie school meeting is available at http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/20685981

The person sitting next to me provided one of the few witness accounts of what happened (or what happened immediately after the shooting) at 41 minutes into the video. But it does not provide the context of the events in the preceding minutes on Elsinore Road or Stanstead Road.

[Annie]

Thank you Michael, I watched all the recording and thought the Police were very professional in their responses,
It is obvious that they cannot divulge everything at this stage due to the ongoing investigation.

What did bother me was when the police were berated for trying to explain why they had police stationed at the hospital where the shot man was being treated, and other circumstances in which this was normal procedure.
I would have be extremely bothered if they had not been there.
At the end of the day this man was allegedly committing a crime,it is unfortunate that he was shot, but what would we all be saying if he had - either got into the car and killed someone - or stabbed someone (if he did indeed have a knife)

[LisaCummins]

[/quote]


My husband said he'd like to meet you alone in person, However, I suspect you are one of these coward coppers who will hide behind his dirty corrupt badge. And if you are a copper, I'd doubt you'd have the courage to come alone.[/quote]

Fancy putting a threat in writing! haha [/quote]


To you and any other idiot,
If you wish to take it as a threat - more fool you!
I could say I want to murder the prime minister. This does not mean I am actually threatening to kill him.
Because my husband said, he'd like to meet Bensonby alone. Obviously he doesn't actually mean it. ....but if you or others wish to make an issue out of it, go ahead, I really couldn't care less.

[Voyageur]

Pathetic and inflammatory thing to say nonetheless.

[CaptainCarCrash]

Pathetic and inflammatory thing to say nonetheless.

Sorry V but may I ask is it your job to go on to every forum in the land and show your disdane and prove your worthyness as a woman of substance?

[Voyageur]

Nope - just ones local to me, in the same way you hop across to VN and add your 2p.