It looks good. With room for comments, as you say, it might work really well, and help market forces drive regeneration, rather than waiting for the council to get its act together. Perhaps Steve Grindlay could add some historical context and others provide data (massaged!) about the population?
I'd pay for the service if I was a landlord with a property sitting empty. Or perhaps you could charge per click through to the estate agents' sites and get them involved.
Your opinion on a new healthy Juice/Coffee Bar in Forest Hil
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
I find it interesting that this topic has had over 2200 hits in the fornight since the thread started. Another with over 13000 hits is the Dolphin thread, albeit over a much longer period.
It tells me that local residents are extremely interested in the future of our high street. With the Council's exercise of trying to obtain TfL funding for improving the pedestrian "walkablity" of the high street and at the same time, hopefully, improving the aesthetics of the area, it is time the retail outets came into line with local aspiration.
It tells me that local residents are extremely interested in the future of our high street. With the Council's exercise of trying to obtain TfL funding for improving the pedestrian "walkablity" of the high street and at the same time, hopefully, improving the aesthetics of the area, it is time the retail outets came into line with local aspiration.
The more I thought about Castiron's suggestion - the better I liked it - and for free! So on 1st February we launch a mini-site promoting vacant retail premises:castiron73 wrote:Could this website diversify and provide commercial property listings, for a fee?
SYDENHAM SHOP SHOP
I will be using http://hurstwarne.com/retail.html as a model as I already have the underlying database scripts to drive it. There will be room for comment. Indeed unearthing relevant info as we did about the Station Approach opportunity is what is going to drive it.
It would be great if SydSoc, TCM, Sydenham Traders and the commercial estate agencies could link to help each other in this regard and together achieve more than any one can individually.
I will be starting a thread in 'Town Asylum' shortly where I will report project progress which you can critique and make suggestions. I look forward to your support. If we can make the difference on just one shop - the rollon effect on the rest of the street could be dramatic.
Admin
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annabel mclaren
- Posts: 115
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 19:55
- Location: thorpes
OK followup posts on SYDENHAM SHOP SHOP should now go here:
http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5722
I'll keep this thread open for comment on other ways to promote new business opportunities in SE26.
Admin
http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5722
I'll keep this thread open for comment on other ways to promote new business opportunities in SE26.
Admin
I think that's a fab idea Admin having a seperate section for retail premises - perhaps if it was a tab at the top of this website like the "history" or "forum" section - or maybe as a link from this website? You may even be able get sponsorship for advertising on behalf of the retailers and this could then be used to support businesses if/ when they set-up - i.e. in some form of grant?
Also I was thinking it would be good if there was a questionaire type section asking people what we would like to see in the high street/ opinions on sydenham (just an independant thing rather than initiated by the council) and statistics on sydenham - just as a section on this website?
If this thread is getting so many hits perhaps if a business is thinking of setting up it would then see the demand & demographic of the area (as a quick guide before carrying out it's own market research)? Currently I don't think the high street reflects what residents want and this could be a good way to perhaps represent the demand?
Just ideas to perhaps kick around..?
Also I was thinking it would be good if there was a questionaire type section asking people what we would like to see in the high street/ opinions on sydenham (just an independant thing rather than initiated by the council) and statistics on sydenham - just as a section on this website?
If this thread is getting so many hits perhaps if a business is thinking of setting up it would then see the demand & demographic of the area (as a quick guide before carrying out it's own market research)? Currently I don't think the high street reflects what residents want and this could be a good way to perhaps represent the demand?
Just ideas to perhaps kick around..?
The first cut of Sydenham's ShopShop is now here: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/shopshop/.
Please visit and follow up here: http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5722
Admin
Please visit and follow up here: http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5722
Admin
Congratulations to admin on such quick work. The site looks good and clearly anything that can be done to improve the visibility of available high street premises is a good thing.
Without straining the argument or detracting from this great idea could I press again the need for overall planning.
Currently, the only concern an agent or leaseholders has when renting an empty property on Sydenham Road is commercial. There is only one issue at stake - can the potential client pay the rent? There is no obligation whatsoever for the agent or leaseholder to consider the future use of the site, beyond that of the rather loose A3 criteria for premises wishing to sell food. Unless the local authority can provide a planning framework on top of the commercial framework which distinguishes between types of use, then all you are likely to get is more of the same - pound shops and take-aways.
Take an example - When the Lokal shut down, there were a number of individuals wishing to rent the property for use as a restaurant. The agent put forward an application which merely said that the new occupier was a business who wanted to use the shop for "A3" use, i.e. the selling of food prepared on the premises. Lewisham had no choice but to accept the application since the shop already had an "A3" licence. There was no way in which Lewisham could ask the agent to disclose whether this was going to be a French restaurant or a take-away chicken joint because there were no planning requirements to do so. As it transpired, we got a fish and chip shop.
Without straining the argument or detracting from this great idea could I press again the need for overall planning.
Currently, the only concern an agent or leaseholders has when renting an empty property on Sydenham Road is commercial. There is only one issue at stake - can the potential client pay the rent? There is no obligation whatsoever for the agent or leaseholder to consider the future use of the site, beyond that of the rather loose A3 criteria for premises wishing to sell food. Unless the local authority can provide a planning framework on top of the commercial framework which distinguishes between types of use, then all you are likely to get is more of the same - pound shops and take-aways.
Take an example - When the Lokal shut down, there were a number of individuals wishing to rent the property for use as a restaurant. The agent put forward an application which merely said that the new occupier was a business who wanted to use the shop for "A3" use, i.e. the selling of food prepared on the premises. Lewisham had no choice but to accept the application since the shop already had an "A3" licence. There was no way in which Lewisham could ask the agent to disclose whether this was going to be a French restaurant or a take-away chicken joint because there were no planning requirements to do so. As it transpired, we got a fish and chip shop.
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
Bit off-topic, but I chatted to the owners of the chip shop when it first changed. At first they'd tried to carry it on as a restaurant, but they didn't have any experience. And like so many of the other retailers they thought the answer was to make it look more and more downmarket, flogging tea and coffee cheap with neon star-shaped cards in the window. So they ended up going back to what they know.
Now every high street needs a good chip shop. (Kentman's is too far away and to be honest it doesn't make much effort). But again they've made the mistake of aiming too low and attracting people who haggle for half a bag of chips for half the money and then still argue menacingly about how many they're getting. Many of their customers don't know the words please or thank you and just grunt and point.
What they should have done was use all that lovely floor space and turn it into a classy fish and chip restaurant. Champagne and beer-battered cod etc. They could have charged twice as much and be enjoying the success the Dolphin is.
Any potential retailers, my services are available for a reasonable fee...
Now every high street needs a good chip shop. (Kentman's is too far away and to be honest it doesn't make much effort). But again they've made the mistake of aiming too low and attracting people who haggle for half a bag of chips for half the money and then still argue menacingly about how many they're getting. Many of their customers don't know the words please or thank you and just grunt and point.
What they should have done was use all that lovely floor space and turn it into a classy fish and chip restaurant. Champagne and beer-battered cod etc. They could have charged twice as much and be enjoying the success the Dolphin is.
Any potential retailers, my services are available for a reasonable fee...
CastIron - I think you are correct about the need for potential clients of shops to discuss issues BEFORE they take the plunge - ideally all part of a proper planning process!
Incidentally, concerning the Station Approach gym which started this thread - I understand it's still available via Property World and could easily be changed to A3 (retail) use.
Just a word of caution for would-be cafe owners. A reasonable-sized premises on the high street will cost you £30-40,000 in rent annually. So just think about it - with heating, rates etc you may need to make a profit of around £1,000 per week before you have paid staff costs or bought stock. Then there's the cost of refitting. It's a pretty sobering thought!
Incidentally, concerning the Station Approach gym which started this thread - I understand it's still available via Property World and could easily be changed to A3 (retail) use.
Just a word of caution for would-be cafe owners. A reasonable-sized premises on the high street will cost you £30-40,000 in rent annually. So just think about it - with heating, rates etc you may need to make a profit of around £1,000 per week before you have paid staff costs or bought stock. Then there's the cost of refitting. It's a pretty sobering thought!
Yep - that really frightens me! It does seem incredibly high for a fourth/fifth rank shopping area. Do we know how this would compare with renting a shop in an equivalent part of Paris, Madrid, Rome ... I just have a feeling that the UK obsession with pension fund investment in property has inflated capital asset values and hence expected rentals which have to be passed on in prices.nasaroc wrote:A reasonable-sized premises on the high street will cost you £30-40,000 in rent annually. So just think about it - with heating, rates etc you may need to make a profit of around £1,000 per week before you have paid staff costs or bought stock.
My daughter runs her own 'Zara Index' - the price of the same clothes in different european branches of the fashion chain. Usually the same throughout the eurozone - but 20% more in the UK despite the lower VAT rates!
Stuart
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castiron73
- Posts: 132
- Joined: 24 Oct 2006 10:05
- Location: Sydenham Thorpes
Well, none of these landlords are making a penny while they're standing empty, so they must be banking on flogging them off at a profit later. It's so short-sighted when you could add so much value by attracting good businesses and helping them thrive.
From what I've seen on the agency sites, buying one of these properties outright, including a four-bed flat above, seems to cost far less than buying a house in the neighbouring streets.
From what I've seen on the agency sites, buying one of these properties outright, including a four-bed flat above, seems to cost far less than buying a house in the neighbouring streets.
Indeed. But even 'free' investment markets operate within government regulatory and tax regimes. Which may explain why the pattern in the UK is different to many other countries - just as our historical tax treatment of mortgages created a high level of home ownership is unusual in Europe.
Its up to people to judge whether the results are better or not. Free markets and democratic control should be intertwined and *not* mutually exclusive IMHO.
Meanwhile back in Sydenham I have to report that my senior management team had a very pleasant first experience visiting Zuckers on Kirkdale for a latte yesterday.
Stuart
Its up to people to judge whether the results are better or not. Free markets and democratic control should be intertwined and *not* mutually exclusive IMHO.
Meanwhile back in Sydenham I have to report that my senior management team had a very pleasant first experience visiting Zuckers on Kirkdale for a latte yesterday.
Stuart
Sydenham Station Approach
As the company who owns the freehold of the entire site at 2-12 Station Approach comprising the flats and commercial parade we have read with interest the comments in the forum.
We would like it to be made known that it is our preferred choice by far to have a food use in the site of the former gym that incorporates your group aspirations of food related retail along the lines of fresh juices, smoothies, every imaginable coffee, pastries, beer, barrels of house wine, fresh breads, olives, humus, Devon ham, Burts chips, a steak in the evening and a meander onto a car less parade without tripping over piles of cab driver fag butts thrown out of the office next door. To actually have a watering hole in Sydenham that opens before you go to work and sells you morning fuel and kicks you out fuelled and knackered ready to do it all again the next day.
The point we are making is that despite not living in Sydenham we spend enough time working there to know that there is nowhere to get a decent meal and drink in a decent atmosphere at a time when you need it most (in the evening).
Whilst Zucker provides a wonderful menu, unfortunately she does not have the premises or the location. Her interests have been an ongoing consideration as we eat and drink in her premises.
We have ceased negotiations with a potential gym user and are currently undecided on a second taxi office.
Whereas your comments regarding landlords are valid and, for the most part, quite true we would like to point out that the site has been fraught with difficulties over the past year with regard to the owner of the former gym. It should also be mentioned that last year we had the former cab office under offer for use as cafe/deli. Unfortunately the prospective tenant pulled out at the last minute due to illness and cold feet (unrelated, I believe!)
We are considering holding a meeting on the site of the former gym next week to invite any interested party to meet us, discuss all issues raised in the forum in more detail.
We are very keen to see a cafe/deli on this site to feed what is quite clearly a great need. Thank you for your comments.
We would like it to be made known that it is our preferred choice by far to have a food use in the site of the former gym that incorporates your group aspirations of food related retail along the lines of fresh juices, smoothies, every imaginable coffee, pastries, beer, barrels of house wine, fresh breads, olives, humus, Devon ham, Burts chips, a steak in the evening and a meander onto a car less parade without tripping over piles of cab driver fag butts thrown out of the office next door. To actually have a watering hole in Sydenham that opens before you go to work and sells you morning fuel and kicks you out fuelled and knackered ready to do it all again the next day.
The point we are making is that despite not living in Sydenham we spend enough time working there to know that there is nowhere to get a decent meal and drink in a decent atmosphere at a time when you need it most (in the evening).
Whilst Zucker provides a wonderful menu, unfortunately she does not have the premises or the location. Her interests have been an ongoing consideration as we eat and drink in her premises.
We have ceased negotiations with a potential gym user and are currently undecided on a second taxi office.
Whereas your comments regarding landlords are valid and, for the most part, quite true we would like to point out that the site has been fraught with difficulties over the past year with regard to the owner of the former gym. It should also be mentioned that last year we had the former cab office under offer for use as cafe/deli. Unfortunately the prospective tenant pulled out at the last minute due to illness and cold feet (unrelated, I believe!)
We are considering holding a meeting on the site of the former gym next week to invite any interested party to meet us, discuss all issues raised in the forum in more detail.
We are very keen to see a cafe/deli on this site to feed what is quite clearly a great need. Thank you for your comments.
Sounds like a dream come true! A coffee bar / restaurant like this would certainly fill a real need and if there was a deli counter it could also provide high quality food for people to take home in the evening. As you are based in Devon, perhaps there could be local suppliers for cheeses, chutneys etc. A second minicab office sounds like overkill! Presumably you know all about the plans for regeneration in the area (the East London Line is coming, and possibly TfL taking over and upgrading the station and improving Station Approach; plus the recent Living Streets exercise, which is looking at ways to improve Sydenham Road and make it more pedestrian friendly).
Fingers crossed
Please dear god can we start getting lovely little coffee bars/delis - anything other than Pound shops. I've lived hear for almost 3 years and I do like it, but my food and drink needs are funished in CP or Forest Hill. Its such a shame that I can't visit somewhere (other than the Dolphin) in my own town!
I lived in West Norwood for 3 years previously and it is very much like Sydneham yet they've got the very successful Lancasters wine bar and a deli! There is even a famers market on a Saturday...come on, please can we catch up???
There would be loads of interest in such places - there must be someone out there who'd relish this challenge.
I lived in West Norwood for 3 years previously and it is very much like Sydneham yet they've got the very successful Lancasters wine bar and a deli! There is even a famers market on a Saturday...come on, please can we catch up???
There would be loads of interest in such places - there must be someone out there who'd relish this challenge.
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Greg Whitehead
- Posts: 474
- Joined: 11 Apr 2005 15:44
- Location: SE26 5RL
Clearly you do not spend enough time here else you would be well aware of The Dolphin.jfl wrote: The point we are making is that despite not living in Sydenham we spend enough time working there to know that there is nowhere to get a decent meal and drink in a decent atmosphere at a time when you need it most (in the evening).
I note upon returning from a two-week sojourn in Singapore and Bali yesterday evening that another hairdresser has cropped up next to Outback. It seems from a brief scan slightly more in keeping with Divercity (and we all remember how successful that particular venture was). Two hairdressers cheek-by-jowl...what form of high-intelligence is this we are working with here? The thought processes at work are clearly beyond my ken. And there was me thinking that with young professional women coming out at a rather steady rate on a regular basis from the two salons opposite the Dolphin and with Outback doing some level of trade that to increase the competition would be tantamount to commercial suicide.
Who knows, maybe the new place will take trade from the other and soon this will become a ferocious cost-war before they both go bust and a nail shop and pound shop will open up in their place and we'll just merrily keep ignoring the shops on that parade, as we have done for years now and jfl will keep losing money hand over fist. How on earth a parade of shops that people only ever pass either to or from work can support two business' that require lengthy procedures (Katherine expends a great deal of time on a full head of highlights and a cut) is beyond me. The footfall is large, the clientele is 'correct', the business types are wrong.
As an aisde - shouldn't Michael (who I believe runs SE23.com) be banned? This is the same Michael Abrahams of the Forest Hill Society? On the STF rather crassly pitching for business? I'm all for free speech but someone needs to bring him to task. How uncooth - the unfortunate thing is it seems to have worked with Kiwi100.
No. Michael & committee runs http://www.foresthillsociety.com. SE23.COM is run independently though the genesis for FHS came from the SE23.COM forum stalwarts with a little help from SydSoc & ST.Greg Whitehead wrote:As an aisde - shouldn't Michael (who I believe runs SE23.com) be banned? This is the same Michael Abrahams of the Forest Hill Society? On the STF rather crassly pitching for business? I'm all for free speech but someone needs to bring him to task. How uncooth - the unfortunate thing is it seems to have worked with Kiwi100.
I hope Kiwi wont mind me disclosing that the reason she posted here in the first place was the delay in getting an account on the SE23.COM Forum. It was me who poached her here.. She had always intended to open in FH. We just failed to persuade her to go south!
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