Social Housing

[Annie]

mikecg ----get ready for all the do-gooders!
I applaud you in your honesty,

[digime2007]

mikecg ----get ready for all the do-gooders!
I applaud you in your honesty,

Yeah, damn those do-gooders going around doing good. What are they playing at? Why can't they just internalise their bitterness and let their festering resentment make the world a little more unpleasant for everyone.

That's the only way we'll ever make a change.

[Eagle]

Yes Anne I also applaud Mike.
A lot of these Liberals live well away from these blocks , not like poor Mike.

Just heard Housing Minsiter Grant Chaps on wireless and hopefully his policy will mean all new council places being given to people in work.

[Tim Lund]

Yeah, damn those do-gooders going around doing good. What are they playing at? Why can't they just internalise their bitterness and let their festering resentment make the world a little more unpleasant for everyone.

The question is whether do-gooders are any good at doing good. Those who look askance at 'do-gooders' will assume not, whereas you are saying that it must be possible to do some good, somehow. I agree, but those of us who believe in some kind of welfare system ought to accept that it can go wrong, and get abused as Mike describes. I think our welfare system is in a mess, but trying to sort it out - which Iain Duncan Smith is trying to do, even with a fair degree of political consensus - is still politically 'courageous', and is currently running into difficulties.

[Eagle]

I agree Tim. IDS trying to do a good job.
Welfare is abused mainly because many thinks they have a right to Welfare without showing responsible behaviour.
There should be no right to any welfare without consideration for others in your locality and society.

When Mr Bevan started the Welfare State it was with the best of intentions and indeed at the begining I do not believe it was abused much.

Even our neighbours in Scandanavia are looking at their Welfare States to see where cuts can be made.

[digime2007]

Yeah, damn those do-gooders going around doing good. What are they playing at? Why can't they just internalise their bitterness and let their festering resentment make the world a little more unpleasant for everyone.

The question is whether do-gooders are any good at doing good. Those who look askance at 'do-gooders' will assume not, whereas you are saying that it must be possible to do some good, somehow. I agree, but those of us who believe in some kind of welfare system ought to accept that it can go wrong, and get abused as Mike describes. I think our welfare system is in a mess, but trying to sort it out - which Iain Duncan Smith is trying to do, even with a fair degree of political consensus - is still politically 'courageous', and is currently running into difficulties.

That's your question not mine.

I question whether some people on this forum have any good intentions at all. I'd rather a do-gooder who is trying to understand a problem and get involved than people who hide behind their keyboards writing intolerant, uninformed and hostile comments - or those people who choose to sit back and applaud from the sidelines.

Some people seem more motivated to "cleanse away" the problems of society than solve them.

I've not posted here for some time and the main reason is that I became very disheartened by the content and tone of a lot of posts. This was made worse by the oxygen the riots gave to some very distasteful and aggressive opinions.

I only came back to post after reading a few Eagle classics that I could not let go unchallenged.

[stuart]

There is/was a consensus that ten guilty men should go free lest one innocent man be convicted.

I don't think it is that bad a ratio between the 'undeserving poor' taking benefits and the 'deserving poor' being denied. But IDS et al are finding it damned difficult to curb benefit abuse without hitting those hard it was intended for. Enough Social Security Ministers have been impaled on that cross for us to have much hope of making a significant change - rhetoric aside.

It is mirrored onto those with money. A split between the honest taxpayer who pays their share and what sometimes seems a majority as you go up the income scale of those that evade or avoid it. Is there a difference between the benefit sponger and the tax evader/avoider? I think not.

Except we lose more dosh from the latter than the former. It is honest tax payers and the deserving poor (sorry about the phrase) who have to carry the burden. Dare one say that some tax avoiders, mentioning no names, are adept at turning our unfocussed fury on the benefit system in general?

The problem is how we cope with our anti-social elements - those that cheat the system in payment and benefit. Policing them out of it is about as easy as policing people out of drugs. There are no easy solutions and those that try and proffer them are making things worse.

Honest taxpayers and the deserving poor should have common cause. It don't look that way at the moment.

Stuart

[Dorian]

All of which I find highly aggressive and hostile.

And your comments are not bigoted and beligerent then digme2007 ? Your a hypocrit of the worst kind.

What is wrong with quoting actual experiences such as Mike has ? or do you think that anti social behaviour should not be mentioned in case of offending the poor unfortunate souls in free Social housing ?

Yeah, damn those do-gooders going around doing good. What are they playing at?

You tell us , since " do-gooders" have become an Right on thing to be , what good have they done , you must know as an ardent supporter. The problems that they feel they are doing good to defeat are worse for the lovey activites of goodness not better.

I question whether some people on this forum have any good intentions at all.

I think for the most posters here have a good intention for the area they live in and dont wish to have the ilk described by Mike that he is forced to endure forced upon them. What are your good intentions digime2007 ?

[gerispringer]

well no one has addressed the issue of services for all these newcomers. Will those housing associations , builders etc build new schools and GPs surgeries?

[Dorian]

They developers apparently make " contributions " which are meant to be relative to the needs that the devlopment creates; the reality is the cash ends up being swallowed up by the likes of " Diversity Directorates" and " Climate change policy units" and " Somalian Advocacy Services" ( before anyone starts, that is one I have seen often) which are deemed more important............possibly by " Do gooders"

[CaptainCarCrash]

Yes Anne I also applaud Mike.
A lot of these Liberals live well away from these blocks , not like poor Mike.

Just heard Housing Minsiter Grant Chaps on wireless and hopefully his policy will mean all new council places being given to people in work.

You're right Eagle.

But the last thing I would want is to demonise every person who is unemployed or look down on people who are in social housing. There are many decent working class people out there who live in social housing as there are an awful lot of people who are just difficult, I wouldn't want to put all unemployed people into the same catagory but there seems to be an issue with people who get it all for free.

On the plus side the council and housing associations have clauses within their tenancy agreements which oppose anti social behaviour and any tenant involved in criminal activity are at risk of being evicted.

I sent my landlord a letter outlining all of the problems we have experienced and they have pretty much been inafectual.

I did not mention every single incident which has affected me where I live as some of it is even more worrying. We have also had the kids from upstairs spitting food onto our windows and window ledges and about a year ago I got up at 06:00 to get ready for work and I could hear what sounded like rain, it turned out to be the boy upstairs pissing out of the window.

[stuart]

They developers apparently make " contributions " which are meant to be relative to the needs that the devlopment creates; the reality is the cash ends up being swallowed up by the likes of " Diversity Directorates" and " Climate change policy units" and " Somalian Advocacy Services"

Can you provide links to these Section 106 agreements?

Stuart

[Annie]

Yeah, damn those do-gooders going around doing good. What are they playing at? Why can't they just internalise their bitterness and let their festering resentment make the world a little more unpleasant for everyone. That's the only way we'll ever make a change.[/quote]



You Damned them not me,
My family consisted of two parents and 10 children, I was born in the 50s, my poor old dad worked all the hours god sent to keep us,we had a terrible education from the primary school setup and an even worse one from the secondary schools we had to go to,
We survived,we had no help from the state because my father would not take "welfare" he had pride,
we were kept clean, fed, and were very polite,we know right from wrong and god help us if we brought shame on our family, or police to the door.
Dicipline is what is missing in society , parental especially, not the Do-gooders that you defend who poo poo all thoughts of responsible parenting,and just stand up for the unfit of our society.
you have your opinion and ------------I have mine , assuming i'm allowed it?

[Tim Lund]

It is honest tax payers and the deserving poor (sorry about the phrase) who have to carry the burden. Dare one say that some tax avoiders, mentioning no names, are adept at turning our unfocussed fury on the benefit system in general?

In my earlier post I held off from the need to distinguish between the deserving and undeserving poor. I do understand your embarrassment about using the phrase, but I suspect this is a symptom of the reluctance of many 'liberals' to face up to this problem - which leaves it an an issue open to bigots. Which group, for the record, I am not saying here includes Eagle, Dorian or any others.

[Tim Lund]

so called social housing is built to such a poor standard they use some of the worst building materials available to save on costs. Shoddy workmanship carried out by third rate eastern European cowboy bodgers.

...

Other than that it's a great place to live, built in 2006 demolished by 2015 hopefully

I was born in the 50s

...

we had a terrible education from the primary school setup and an even worse one from the secondary schools we had to go to,
We survived,we had no help from the state because my father would not take "welfare" he had pride

It's not fair to ask where exactly Mike is living, but I am interested in this as a case study of poor provision of public goods. From the dates Mike gives, it's happening now, and from the dates Annie gives, it was happening in the 60s. My mother-in-law has a phrase 'good enough for government work' - so it was probably happening in the '40s and '50s too.

[digime2007]

@Dorian - maybe I am intolerant of intolerant people. Now there's a paradox to muse. Still, in the worse case scenario I'd say I'm the best kind of hypocrite. I make no apologies for opposing selfishness, ignorance and discrimination.

@Annie - you might want to consider the concept of irony.

Anyway, I apologise for any high jacking of this thread. I hope it doesn't distract from the good (and on topic!) points made by Stuart and Tim.

[Dorian]

Can you provide links to these Section 106 agreements?

Stuart

No. I also never said that Section 106's specifying those things existed. My point was that although these planning gain agreements specify " education places" " parks " etc etc; no one ever actually knows where that moneys goes once paid. Your question really should be that Councils should be more transparent about where these finances are directed and if a development attracts £xxxxxx towards the local School that the local School get's that money . What actually happens is the money dissapears into the financial abyss of public sector lunacy.

It's only Civil servants/ Local Authority employees I have ever known that can plan and book their " sick " days in advance !

[Dorian]

I make no apologies for opposing selfishness, ignorance and discrimination.

I take it you are describing Mikes anti -social neighbours here ? Glad you oppose them too

[Eagle]

Yes feel very sorry for Mike's terrible neighbours , as Digame says.

How can this sort of thing on on unpunished in Britain in 2011. Very sad.

People who behave like Mike states do not deserve state handouts. Would they get them in China ? I wonder.

[JoeP]

I agree with Eagle on this one. Some people think they can behave any way they like because there seem to be few if any consequences. Anti social behaviour should be treated extremely seriously. Unfortunately treating anti social people as some kind of victims of society is a viewpoint I can't begin to understand and giving them money and housing baffles me completely. It's not a case of intolerance. It's a case of people being fed up having to live in a society where there is a serious lack of mutual respect. I don't know quite how to fix it but I believe extreme liberalism is a part of the cause and not part of the cure.

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