Fransfield Grove

[Falkor]

Steve, that photo showing the Costcutter's site would have to rank as one of my Top 3 favourite photos you've shared with us on the forum! I've walked past that small parade on many occasions, but never once considered it might have had any significant history, nor realised how the present 96 Kirkdale stretches behind into Fransfield Grove.

Unfortunately, I cannot view the above set of photos in high resolution because Flickr is prompting me to first login!? A bit of detective work reveals that you might have this set tagged as "private" or something? Any chance of fixing this please, so I can view them in original size?

You describe the main photo very well indeed! I never realised there was an original Woodman building, and the fact that it still survives behind a facade; I assume the side wall is now hidden by the connecting parade. These photos and information are not to be found in any of my Sydenham history books. Steve, you've proven there exists an abundance of unseen photos that warrants another book in my opinion--I'm not referring to additional photos of the same view either--I think you would be the perfect man for the job (time and motivation withstanding). I had the desire the write a book a few years back, but my poor English skills did not enable me to do so. Your English is perfect mate...

The terrace was built in about 1876. On the extreme left is a corn merchant's. This shop and the two shops nearer to the Woodman were demolished in about 1894 when the Invicta Laundry was built. That building was demolished a few years ago to make way for the Costcutter building.

Well said! This is probably the most informative topic I've read so far on this forum... That is some excellent info there. I had no idea about the evolution of this site.

back in the 1950`s a large hole suddenly appeared in the road outside the Woodman pub, or at least a bit further down by what ued to be Bouchers grocers shop on the opposite corner. I have a vague recollection of a bus involved with the hole

BTW, you reminded me of something else... I heard a rumour that a bus crashed into a building that stood across the road from the Woodman, in the 1980s or 1990s, and that this building was replaced with the present one. I don't remember this incident, so if it were true, it was probably in the 80s when I was still in my young, ignorant stage of life.

On the corner of Dartmouth rd, there was a large ironmonger, then a bit further down a really rough barber, Catheralls,who only did short back and sides, made my life a misery!

I seem to have heard that there was once a windmill in Halifax street, supposedly parts remained.

There is nothing now, mate... I've been searching Springfield Rise, Rosamond Street, Dallas Road, Rowland Grove, Mill Gardens, Wells Park estate for any remnants of the "old Sydenham" whatsoever, but have failed to find a single thing. The scene now is such a contrast to your day.

[leaf]

falkor
you may know this anyway,but if you go into fransfield grove and look into the carpark of malibu house[the flats above costcutter],look in the direction of the woodman,you will see what is visible of the original building wall,it looks quite flinty if you know what i mean?

[Steve Grindlay]

Sydenham Mill was in Mill Gardens until the 1880s. This picture is a modern copy of a lost original that must date to about 1847, when Thomas Scudder was the first licensee of the Woodman. It shows the original front of the Woodman, with the mill in the background, beyond Halifax Street:

At the time of this painting (1847) the Boucher family had just opened their post office in the building at the left of Halifax Street.

Some time ago I was told that a millstone from the mill survived, embedded in a wall in the garden of Home Cottage, Mill Gardens. When the cottage was empty recently I decided to investigate, and found this:


It is not, apparently, a millstone for grinding corn, but was connected to a similar stone by an axle. These stones rotated in a circular trough to crush solid particles, minerals and so on (I'm not very technical, this was explained to me by someone who knows about these things).

Sydenham Mill was built in the 1830s, and from the 1841 until the the mill was abandoned in the 1880s the miller was George Brigden. The Brigdens continued in Mill Gardens, trading as corn merchants, until the outbreak of World War 2.

By the way, Falkor, I've made those other pictures public, now.

[kenny b]

I would venture to suggst that is not a millstone but a whetstone. Used for sharpening knives, axes and so on. Mostly ran in an iron trough of water,
very common article in victorian era, and came in various sizes.
I have two sitting in the garden right now! Interestingt that Bouchers was established as far back as that.

[Falkor]

Steve continues to outdo himself... What is going on here!? That painting is AMAZING! Guess what? This work of art is not published in any of my Sydenham history books, either. I've never seen it in my life! I've seen the Pissarro views (sure!), the center of Sydenham, Sydenham Common/Kirkdale paintings, but I've never seen that one of the Woodman and entrance to Halifax street. Wow, that is SUPERB!!! Steve has really done it this time... Perfect timing also, following our discussions of the Woodman. What really makes it special is the windmill!! I take it that's the only view of the windmill known to exist? We can now get an idea of how big it was and which direction it was facing. Somebody quoted in the "Sydenham and Forest Hill Past" book mentioned he could once see the Windmill from Peak Hill (see the chapter on Peak Hill; very interesting read). Damn, I would rather have that painting hanging up on my wall any day over any Pissarro view(s). That is really something... This topic is getting better and better...

I have some other things I would like to discuss about Mill Gardens and Kirkdale, but my next post regarding this topic can wait until tomorrow I think.....

By the way, Falkor, I've made those other pictures public, now.

Cheers! I was examining this site Sunday evening, so thanks for sharing all these photos in hi-res. From left-to-right is the Woodman pub, Costcutters building, and part of the original parade (5 x 2 windows). I can now appreciate the above photos a lot more. But somebody should take some photos of the recently demolished corner of Dartmouth road, opposite.

falkor
you may know this anyway,but if you go into fransfield grove and look into the carpark of malibu house[the flats above costcutter],look in the direction of the woodman,you will see what is visible of the original building wall,it looks quite flinty if you know what i mean?

Thanks for the tip! Now that I know what I'm looking for, I'll pass-by Fransfield Grove next time on my way home to have a look... It was a bit difficult to make out much from Halifax street during Sunday's walk, as it was gone 5pm.

[Steve Grindlay]

I would venture to suggst that is not a millstone but a whetstone...

You could well be right, kenny b, I was a little cautious about it. However, the person who claimed the stone was from the mill had lived in the cottage for very many years, and I felt he may have known something of its origin. And the person who suggested they were fixed together in pairs for grinding also showed me several pictures of such stones, actually in operation, and they looked very similar. He also told me what they were called, but I can't remember. As you say, it might also have been a whetstone, but I will still stick with the possibility that it was connected with the mill.

[Juwlz]

Am I the only one that thinks that picture looks like it was nicked off the wall of the local primary school?!
Sorry, only kidding, its fascinating. I will try to grow up!

[Steve Grindlay]

Am I the only one that thinks that picture looks like it was nicked off the wall of the local primary school?!

In a way you're right, juwlz. I suppose the painting would be called "naive". It was apparently copied from an original that at one time hung behind the bar of the Woodman, but disappeared some years ago. The copy is painted, I believe, in acrylic paint on a hardboard panel. After the owner died it passed through my hands briefly (when I photographed it) before being passed to local studies.

Several things convince me that it is based on an original view. Although Thomas Scudder founded the rustic garden furniture business next door he was the first landlord of the Woodman, for several years around 1847. This is a fairly obscure piece of information, and it is unlikely that someone painting a fanciful scene of the pub and the mill a century or more later would have troubled to unearth it.

It was fairly common for a new landlord to commission a painting of his pub, with his name prominently featured and "The Woodman" reflects Scudder's principal occupation. He then went full time into making garden furniture. The fence in front of the pub in this painting is very similar to the fencing in the much later photograph of the rustic works site.

I would dearly like to know what happened to the original painting.

[Falkor]

Oh Juwlz, don't say that, I really like it! That's the first view of the windmill I've ever seen...

[Steve Grindlay]

Oh Juwlz, don't say that, I really like it! That's the first view of the windmill I've ever seen...

Then I imagine you've not seen this picture:

A higher resolution version is available [here] but you may need patience as is a large file.

The view is along Jews Walk, from the Westwood Hill end, with Wells Road (its old name) between hedges and parallel to the fence in Jews Walk. Mill Lane (also the old name) leads to the mill.

It was painted in the 1830s, but I can't remember the artist's name (details are on my main computer, still inaccessible). The original is in Lewisham Local Studies.

[leaf]

I will think of this view next time i walk down jews walk.....

[Falkor]

Wow, I'm speechless! THANKS STEVE!!!

That painting needs analysing, and I shall shortly be starting up a new topic about Mill Gardens.

[Terry]

all the above about the Wooden Cottages and the Woodman pub and Sydenham
Part of Willow Way / Walk was once Scudder Row, the pub way back in history was called the " Scudder ". Scudder Row / Willow walk i suspect as they were woodworkers may have been built by The Scudder family,
They were one of the earliest settled families in Sydenham.
Apart from being wood and willow aorkers they were publicans shopkeepers, butchers, and brick workers,
I am still trying to Find details of Thomas Scudder married to Ann
in Sydenham about 1790. he was my Gt Gt GT Grandfather, One of his sons John born 1803 Sydenham married Ann Quin of Beckenham
I suspect that before the Scudders turned at Sydenham They came fron Dartford or Erith
all best to you all Terry ex resident of Penge
left in 1972

[Beerboy]

I find this reference to the Scudders very interesting. My grandmother on my mothers side was I believe a Scudder. She lived in Springfield Rise as I did. There were also Scudders living in the small laid back from the road, parade of houses/cottages on the corner of Wells Park Rd. and Taylors Lane. There are references to the Scudders on 'Sydenham. Back in the day'. By the way, my late mother worked in the Invicta laundry and I can still remember it. Mill Hill? Yes I remember it, and the Cottage Of Content opposite the entrance to it in Wells Park Rd. As kids we would play tricks on pedestrians while hiding behind the small wall in front of the deserted chapel opposite The Cottage. A parcel on a piece of string. Innocent pranks in those days(Late forties)