My take on London's Riots

[sfhyouthforum]

Dan, email mel@sfhyouthforum.org.uk or message me here on the forum website. And I'll call you back to have a chat, x

[Rachael]

Melissa - I don't think Admin needs to take this picture down (if it was already in the public domain, it is hard to argue about it being shared). I think it should stay up as proof that people only see what they want to see.

I suspect that what the vast majority of us see is a great picture of normal, happy looking teenagers, and it is an image to be proud of. Rick's post made me laugh, because what he said bore no relation whatsoever to what the picture shows. I can't see anything 'garish' in what the kids are wearing. I can't see any demonstration of a 'bolshy attitude'. What I can see in that post is someone with a great big wooden spoon trying to stir up trouble.

[sfhyouthforum]

I understand but the photo is now being used out of context and I have to think of what parents and guardians will think and feel as they watch their son or daughter being ridiculed. Very unhappy about this. I understand that the average person knows little of the procedures involved when working with children and young people but there are. Child Protection, for example. Posting this photograph out of its context is actually wrong and I have to, in my job role, inform such people that it is wrong.

Totally shocking.

[Tim Lund]

Rick, the line-up wasn't a job interview!

If any of the people in the picture came to me for an interview and demonstrated enthusiasm, insight, will, talent, good thinking and visual style I'd employ them if I had a position available (I run a design company).

Ditto for me, except I'd more likely be interested in what they could do with an Excel spreadsheet or a Word document, and ability to use English and arithmetic, than in visual style. And I wouldn't particularly care whether they'd got the European Computer Driving Licence, any other such qualification, or even GCSEs - what matters would be their ability to discover things on their own and explain themselves. As to how they dress - if I was putting them in front of clients it might be different - but they then might have something to say to me about putting myself in front of potential clients among their contacts.

[CaptainCarCrash]

To be honest I don't think it matters how people choose to dress, the way in which they present themselves is more important. My attitude towards the youth maseeve may change in the future but for now I need to seriously consider what next for my family.


I don't want to live in an area surrounded by gangs and crazy loonatic criminals so I'm looking at options.

Come hell or high water I do not want to live in London anymore.

[Miserableold-ishgit]

I have removed the picture - it had no real bearing on the thread within the debate, and could only have had a negative effect in it being used in this way.

It might have already been in the public domain, but that does not justify it being used in this manner.

Friend

What picture ?

[sfhyouthforum]

Somone posted a photograph of the young peoples' youth forum where a group of teenagers from all walks of life, ages and abilities met up at Rockbourne Youth Club one Saturday afternoon to meet councillors John Paschoud, and Chris Best, as well as other key adults who work for places like Centrepoint for homeless youth, our chair - Nigel Desborough, and other youth workers. The young people had a group photograph taken of them standing and sitting with us adults. The person who posted this photo then ripped in to them for wearing hoodies and jeans and looking the way they do, and used offensive language to describe them.

It is very insulting to the young folk, because these are the ones actually making a positive contribution. I asked for it to be removed because the photo is being used out of its context and the last thing I want to do is upset parents and guardians and indeed put future members off from joining in.

[michael]

The photo of fine members of the community (young and less young) is available in its proper context at http://www.chrisbest.labour.co.uk/Activ ... g%20people

[CaptainCarCrash]

The photo of fine members of the community (young and less young) is available in its proper context at http://www.chrisbest.labour.co.uk/Activ ... g%20people

Cool,

Gangbangers and feral youths do not attend these types of organisations or societies. They see it as a shameful stain on their street cred.

It's tragic that some of the kids being processed through the courts today are not accompanied by parants.

These are the ones who need real help, I'd pay in to help them, it's really sad that children are left to fend for themselves in this day and age, may be this is a bit of a wake up call for all of us.

[Tim Lund]

A typical comment (paraphrased) is that "We would employ you from your CV but you don't have experience". Q: "How do I get experience?" A: "Not my problem, goodbye."

Part of the problem here is that many qualifications have become meaningless. A qualification should be something which helps tell an employer that the candidate is worth hiring. If the qualification is something like a level 3 NVQ or better, it probably does, but there are too many professional trainers / teachers whose business is to churn out qualifications, without having to worry about whether the people who get them benefit. This is one of the things what was going on at Envirowork Lewisham (sorry if any of you think I obsess about this ). As a result, kids being told they need to get qualifications will be justly sceptical. They aren't stupid, after all.

Are there any answers out there to that one for young people? I know a few in that boat.

Thanks in advance for any ideas on that Catch22.

I know this is not exactly a detailed answer, but in principle it's just a matter of using some enterprise - but also being realistic. To repeat

‘Adolescents are not hooded monsters who naturally seek to intimidate or harass. They are young people with energy and time but little experience. Adults are people with lots of experience, but little energy and time. Somewhere a swap needs to take place.’

So what can you people do with their time and energy, to swap with adults, gaining experience, pocket money or both? Melissa suggested mowing lawns ... well, as a keen gardener, I'd agree that there's scope here, although it's not quite as simple as that. And there are lots of cultural factors which get in the way, so I'll stop here. But in today's economic climate, there's no point just hoping a job is going to turn up. Young people, like anyone else, will need to go out and look for them.

[mosy]

<quote>But in today's economic climate, there's no point just hoping a job is going to turn up. Young people, like anyone else, will need to go out and look for them.</quote>
Thanks for your reply Tim Lund. I'll tell my son that, OK, even though nothing has turned up even at minimum wage from almost 400 applications since end June (not to mention a fortune spent on mobile phone interviews at the caller's cost of course), not to worry, as just need to go out and look. I'm sure that'll cheer him up. He has a good degree from a good uni, so if he can't get even a min wage job, what chance for those less fortunate? Even some local charity shops have said they're not taking on any more volunteers. My son also has a lot of temp work experience in office admin (expert on computer too), sales and marketing, shop, and sports/children areas, so not completely raw. Again, what chance do less capable jobseekers have?

Depression sets in. Further courses like evening classes cost money and no guarantees even if successful. There are just too many people chasing too few jobs. Some temp jobs my son has done have eaten half his wage away just in travel costs given he's been prepared to go way up into North London for the available work, let alone the cost of "buy your own uniform" requirements.

Still, he'll be pleased to know that he just needs to go out there and look. I'm sorry, but if your post was intended to provide some sort of light at the end of the tunnel, then it's a very long tunnel.

[Voyageur]

I assume the point that Tim was trying to make is that it is hard for anyone to get a job at the moment - not just for the young. If you add to this the fact that degrees have been largely devalued then this makes the issue worse.

At the other end of the spectrum ageism makes it equally tough. Try looking for a job at 50+ and you have a hell of a job on your hands.

[mosy]

I'm afraid I've also been there done that at the ageist end of the scale so like you, I know how it must feel for youngsters with their whole life ahead of them yet with little prospect on the horizon. I understand about devaluation of degrees, but set that aside and assume only a personable, literate etc chap as he and his friends are with no joy, then what chance others?

It is cold comfort to say that it is hard for anyone to get a job at the moment. Does that mean people should turn to riot and theft, certainly not. Apart from the sheer lunacy of destroying property and the despair it causes, it lands a person if caught and convicted with a criminal record and that is perhaps a much longer punishment to carry than any effect of a short-term jail sentence.

It's often said that a lot of even "good" people are good for fear of getting caught rather than by moral compass. I was subject to physical punishment as most of my generation was. It was my mum though who would say that you just don't do it because it's wrong, whether you can get away with it or not, thus invoking the guilty conscience aspect that's stayed with me ever since.

I think young folks can do without being labelled. I often ask hoodies directions or the time and all have been polite. I'm not happy about the bikes-on-pavement ones though.

[Campervantim]

Melissa
That is one of the best and most insightful comments on the riots Ive read anywhere - be it in online forums such as this or by national press. Thank you for that.

My take is that yes, riots need to be clamped down on and clamped down hard. But that roots that allow people to think and feel the way they do, whether that be alienation or utter contempt for others and for decent behaviour need to be identified and rectified. If we don't we'll have another generation in 10 years doing exactly the same.

So yes, get out there and volunteer in whatever capacity your skills and time
allow. And to those advocating rubber bullets, baton rounds and water cannon may I humbly suggest that such 'armchair general' views are misguided and unhelpful. If the police themselves say that such things are not needed and would make matters worse, and that all they need is manpower and the courts to punish those arrested, then that is probably the case. Indeed senior police officers are being reported as saying Camerons insistence that these things be used is misguided and inflamatory.

Finally, off topic slightly I know, but (and I can't believe I'm crediting him) Peter Oborne made some good comments on the telegraph on the moral decay being at both ends of society and to some degree reflect each other.
http://tgr.ph/oSR3f2

I am local - I live on the border of Forest Hill and Sydenham but this is my first and probably only post on the forum. Time is scare enough and with a family, work and the volunteering I'm involved in, I simply don't have the time to get involved in every online discussion.

Anyway, we all have skills, it's about time more people put them to use bettering society as well as themselves or venting via online forums.

Melissa- any objections to me sharing your insight with others, perhaps via Twitter?

PS - apologies for typos / errors. I'm doing this on a phone, which isn't the easiest format for following and commenting on a thread.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[sfhyouthforum]

Hi Campervantim!

You are very welcome to pass this on. I have put it up on my personal blog:

http://www.ideastap.com/People/5e7ff9ae ... 3a00cbb2c6

Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/MillyJK

Mosy, can I also suggest your son looks on the IdeasTap website? I am not sure his degree subject, but there are lots of jobs in media and the arts on here, and mostly geared at young adults.
http://www.ideastap.com/Opportunities/Jobs

[CaptainCarCrash]

Hi Wolfieeeeee!

Rich people's scum kids were out rioting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/index.html

It's easy to quote what the media are spouting but I would prefer to see rioters pinged up with a few stingers and tazered myself.

I don't care about corporate techno gadget shops getting trashed, it's the killings and burning people out of there homes that has narked me the most.

In hindsight I suppose the crap that a lot of people have to rub shoulders with in towns and cities all over the country have made them selves visible to the types of people who much prefer to sweep the issues under the carpet.

OK to call people armchair generals but as I said elsewhere the police appeared to have lost control at one point and it was anarchy on the streets which put fear into people,all the while the police and government appeared inaffectual. On the same note it's easy to make knee jerk reactions when your seeing a real life desaster movie unfold on your highstreet.

Lot's of people will have many different emotions about what went on.

I can't believe what they did in Croydon considering the council have more CCTV than New York.
The moronic behaviour of some of the looters is beyond real definition. What ever posessed people to join in? even more baffling is how on gods earth did they expect to get away with it?

[Ann Shantoak]

PS - apologies for typos / errors. I'm doing this on a phone, which isn't the easiest format for following and commenting on a thread.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

What, even with a HTC Sense?

[Tim Lund]

I assume the point that Tim was trying to make is that it is hard for anyone to get a job at the moment - not just for the young. If you add to this the fact that degrees have been largely devalued then this makes the issue worse.

At the other end of the spectrum ageism makes it equally tough. Try looking for a job at 50+ and you have a hell of a job on your hands.

Yes - something like that. I'm trying to make a distinction between getting what is seen as a 'proper' job, and alternative ways of doing something constructive and/or remunerative. There are two sorts of reason that finding a job is difficult. One is macro - the economy being sluggish, and with further cuts coming and the sovereign debt crisis likely to return to recession. This affects any sort of job. The other - which I was focusing on - is micro - there being all sorts of regulatory, even cultural factors which deter employers from offering 'proper' jobs.

People like Mosy's son are in a lousy situation, and it's easy to take it personally, and get depressed. If I was in his situation, I would be angry. I'm not sure how I would direct my anger - I've heard people say that depression is anger directed at yourself. But before directing my anger anywhere, I'd like to think I'd try to understand the political / economic situation I was in. I hope that what I and other contributors write on this excellent Forum are part of coming to this understanding.

This applies to all age range, but the young, without work experience, are probably worst hit.

[mosy]

Thank you sfhyouthforum for the opportunities link, which I'll certainly pass on.

On directing anger, a TV programme a couple of years ago followed some youths who had been given boot camp as a corrective punishment. They had to be up at the crack of dawn, do lots of physical exercise, behave of course and no sloppiness at all was allowed. Several at the conclusion said they appreciated the experience as it gave them a reason to get up and gave them self esteem from the sense of achievement. The irony was that when their "time" ended, they were back in the position they started from, effectively kicking their heels.

Organised activities like football cost money to run and thus to attend - there aren't many free-entry ones that I know of, but if anyone does they could perhaps post up about those?

My thought here is that around mid teens age, kids have a huge amount of energy to utilise/disperse (from my limited knowledge). In my day, confession, we'd climb over the school wall and use the netball "basket" on the wall, or the rounders pitch in the playground, until a Bobby spotted us and chucked us out. Perhaps parks could mark out pitches or something which can't just become drinking/smoking areas? Just a thought. I suppose kids wanting to play happily could be bullied and their ball taken away whatever and regrettably I'm no expert on how to counter such things.

[Eagle]

Our PM said if you are old enough to commit the crime then you are old enough to do the time.

Very well said but unfortunately the courts have not carried out his and our wishes.

Most under 18's have been let of. This is an absolute disgrace. Should be birched at the very least and parents should lose all benefits and social housing.

Most parts of the world do not have social housing or benefit. These scum should be full of gratitude how society treats them.