Fransfield Grove

[Liberty]

Following on from the success of finding out some information on Mount Ash Road a friend has asked me to find out if anyone knows about the former warehouse facing the learning centre on the left as you turn up Fransfield Grove, before the current car park starts. It looks like it was once part of one big building and could have been a store warehouse. Some suggestions have been timber storage.

I have looked in the book of Sydenham and Forest Hill but there is no mention of the street or building.

Any information / photos would be much appreciated.

Thank you

[Liberty]

Is there any information about the shops years ago where Costcutter and the 1930's shop is now?

[Falkor]

All I know is that there used to be a Laundrette at the point of the bend in Fransfield Grove that blew up in the 50s or 60s. Fransfield Grove is not so much of an old road, but Mill Gardens--adjoined--had a lot more history.

Not sure how the terrace of shops with Costcutter compares to the c1820s shops at the top of Dartmouth Road in terms of age, but would be interesting to know nevertheless.

[Steve Grindlay]

Is there any information about the shops years ago where Costcutter and the 1930's shop is now?

This picture shows the Costcutter's site in about 1870:

From the 1840s the site had been occupied by Thomas Scudder's Rustic Works (he made wooden garden furniture - you can see a couple of examples). To the left is the side wall of the Woodman. In 1847, in addition to his Rustic Works, Thomas Scudder also became the first landlord of the Woodman. The original building was a small flint cottage which still, in part at least, survives, almost completely enclosed by the late Victorian facade. You can see it from Halifax Street (the back wall of the pub). I suspect Scudder named the pub after his principal occupation. In the distance are the backs of the houses in Halifax Street.

This picture shows the terrace that includes the Art Deco shop:

The terrace was built in about 1876. On the extreme left is a corn merchant's. This shop and the two shops nearer to the Woodman were demolished in about 1894 when the Invicta Laundry was built. That building was demolished a few years ago to make way for the Costcutter building.

Finally, this picture shows the Art Deco shop as it was in 1893, when occupied by Harry Hallier, a prolific local photographer. You can recognise the shop in the above photograph by the advertising board between the first and second floor windows:


To see these pictures at higher resolution, click [here]

[Liberty]

Thank you very much for the information it looks like the warehouse style building must have been put up much later.

[Steve Grindlay]

... it looks like the warehouse style building must have been put up much later.

Sorry, Liberty, I completely forgot about your original question. I assume the building you mean is the one shown on this map, to the right of the "e" in "Grove", and at the back of the present 96 Kirkdale.

From the mid 1870s until 1902 or later 96 Kirkdale was occupied by George Kemp, a builder, and although the Fransfield Grove building was not part of the original development, it was certainly there by 1894. There's little doubt that the building was part of George Kemp's business, so the suggestion of a timber storage is not too wide of the mark.

[Liberty]

Thank you so much Steve your a star I know that my friend will be thrilled

[BingBong]

That's an interesting map you've shown there Steve. Where's it from? What's the approx date? I'd like to see more of the bit top left, following on from my Kelvin Grove enquiries.

[kenny b]

that was the back end of the large laundry, I remember it blowing up, I was at Kelvin Grove school, the biggest bang I`ve ever heard.
back in the 1950`s a large hole suddenly appeared in the road outside the Woodman pub, or at least a bit further down by what ued to be Bouchers grocers shop on the opposite corner. I have a vague recollection of a bus involved with the hole

[Liberty]

Was it a building then or an open space as it is now a car park?

[kenny b]

Very much a building, and not a pretty one!

[Liberty]

Maybe that's why it was pulled down.. Now it is a car park for the blocks of flats and the back of the shops..

[kenny b]

Back in the 1950`s it was such a busy and varied little set of shops.
At the corner of Fransfield was a cafe, frequented by the local teddy boys at night!, then the next or next but one was a really old fashioned grocer, then a sweet and cigs owned by mr daniels who had another further down on the left,
On the corner of Halifax stret was Boucher, grocers,& post office in one corner , sawdust on the floor, tea in containers, biscuits in glasstop tins at the front of the counter;at the far end spam, corned beef and bacon and ham dispensed by old Boucher always in a homburg hat.
Catered for the old colonial brigade as in the window always had tins of bombay duck and puppodums which we kids thought hilarious.
Past Denham court flats, was Motts the chemist, [was Hornimans restaurant when I last saw it.] then more shops and greengrocers to the pub at Wells Park rd.

On the corner of Dartmouth rd, there was a large ironmonger, then a bit further down a really rough barber, Catheralls,who only did short back and sides, made my life a misery!
Back on the Kirkdale, a greengrocer, a real bakers, a toyshop, and Miles the butcher, used to have an iron ox head above the door, they used to slaughter their own animals there before the war I believe.
Back up a bit was a real film set junk shop, an absolute cobweb covered place full of all sorts of stuff which never seemed to sell.
At the back of this shop was some organ pipes, the old boy that ran it I heard was an organist at Crystal Palace; on New Years eve he would get a bit drunk in the Woodman pub then at midnight would ring in the New year on a set of handbells whilst standing in the middle of the road!
A few doors up from Willow way one of the countrys first all night launderettes opened about 1960-ish, tho` why they thought anyone would want to do midnight washing in Kirkdale beats me.
On the other side of willow way another grocer, run by a man who was incredibly short sighted, with truly thick glasses; To this day I am ashamed of the tricks we would play on this poor man.Next to him another sweet shop, you had to go down stpps to it, it had a local delicacy on sale, a brick of ice cream beaten up in a glass of Tizer; by heck we knew how to live it up then....
Are the wooden fronted houses still opposite Fransfield grove?

[leaf]

thanks kenny for a wonderful history lesson!

all the photos on here are great but nothing beats a first hand account of the way things were.

yes the wooden houses are still there,one sold quite recently actually,though i cant imagine what the insurance costs are

[Liberty]

I thought the wooden houses always loooked a bit out of place were they built when you were here kenny?

[leaf]

I think they are a lot older than that liberty,i have something about them in a book somewhere.......

[Liberty]

I thought they looked old but that it was just down to the fact that the wood has not worn so well.

[kenny b]

Yes they are quite old, surprised they are still standing, Lewisham council could get quite keen on knocking things down at one time.I seem to have heard that there was once a windmill in Halifax street, supposedly parts remained.

[Falkor]

This topic is too informative--even for me!! I'll have to come back to this later...

[Steve Grindlay]

The wooden cottages are indeed quite old, amongst the earliest buildings erected after Sydenham Common was enclosed in 1819 and thus amongst the oldest buildings in Upper Sydenham. The cottages were built in the 1820s and, along with another pair in Mount Gardens and a couple (recently heavily restored) in Taylors Lane are the only survivors of the many similar timber cottages that were built along Dartmouth Road, Willow Way, Mill Gardens and, perhaps, elsewhere in Upper Sydenham.