If there's £10K going spare, add it to the High St improvement fund instead of wasting it on a stack of broken tiles and grout.
If someone wants a pet project to improve the look of the area, try persuading the local estate agents to remove their old sale/let boards from the fronts of the shops, as they're supposed to.
W Wonder
NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
I'm not going to vote in this poll, because I think it's pointless and unhelpful expressing a view pro or anti until we have more details of what is proposed and can base what we think on some hard evidence.
Incidentally, I hope nobody thinks that 'all those delis and bistros we so want' (Lizzie) and 'the trendy shops, bars, restaurants and deli's that everyone [?] on this forum keeps begging for' (SMOKEIT) are the only, or indeed main, criteria for deciding whether Sydenham is a nice place to live in.
Incidentally, I hope nobody thinks that 'all those delis and bistros we so want' (Lizzie) and 'the trendy shops, bars, restaurants and deli's that everyone [?] on this forum keeps begging for' (SMOKEIT) are the only, or indeed main, criteria for deciding whether Sydenham is a nice place to live in.
Robin,Incidentally, I hope nobody thinks that 'all those delis and bistros we so want' (Lizzie) and 'the trendy shops, bars, restaurants and deli's that everyone [?] on this forum keeps begging for' (SMOKEIT) are the only, or indeed main, criteria for deciding whether Sydenham is a nice place to live in.
I agree - it's not the only criteria. I used it because it's what people on this forum have indicated time and again that they want.
But, are not well-run, well-used, attractive, successful businesses on the high street, rather than a string of empty shops, quite an important indicator of a nice place to live? The high street is the face of Sydenham and as such it's important that it looks good and serves the community well. If it looks crappy then it attracts crappy behaviour.
So yes, a pretty important (but not the only) criteria for deciding whether Sydenham is a nice place to live.
Liz
My vote’s a No!
I think the folks who spear-headed the idea did a really wonderful job in getting their ideas together and have a lot of enthusiasm about it, but I’ve said it before… it will look like exactly what it will be… an afterthought, a way of trying to ‘fix’ the thing.
I really think that, believe it or not, that style of architecture will become vogue again in time. Look at Southwark tower which was apparently listed.
If the building is simply cleaned and painted and given proper ‘window treatments’ (do you use that word in the UK), I think the building will stand on it’s own.
Clean it, Paint it, Sympathetically dress the windows with really good modern fittings or leave them bare! Don’t tack on a solution.
I think the folks who spear-headed the idea did a really wonderful job in getting their ideas together and have a lot of enthusiasm about it, but I’ve said it before… it will look like exactly what it will be… an afterthought, a way of trying to ‘fix’ the thing.
I really think that, believe it or not, that style of architecture will become vogue again in time. Look at Southwark tower which was apparently listed.
If the building is simply cleaned and painted and given proper ‘window treatments’ (do you use that word in the UK), I think the building will stand on it’s own.
Clean it, Paint it, Sympathetically dress the windows with really good modern fittings or leave them bare! Don’t tack on a solution.
Please no!
I'm sure whoever came up with the Catford Centre giant cat thought it was a good idea at the time. This mosaic may not be in the same league of awfulness but it is still pretty embarrassing.
Get the obvious problems sorted out (shop fronts, dodgy pavements, safe crossings, vagrants etc) then think about the finishing touches. I'm all for small, incremental (and cheap) improvements that will make the high street usable. I'm certainly not in interested in some cllr's legacy.
It's not like it's complicated (although I'm sure those in charge of the budget would like to make the process as complicated as possible).
First post and a rant. Yay
Is there any organised opposition to this?
I'm sure whoever came up with the Catford Centre giant cat thought it was a good idea at the time. This mosaic may not be in the same league of awfulness but it is still pretty embarrassing.
Get the obvious problems sorted out (shop fronts, dodgy pavements, safe crossings, vagrants etc) then think about the finishing touches. I'm all for small, incremental (and cheap) improvements that will make the high street usable. I'm certainly not in interested in some cllr's legacy.
It's not like it's complicated (although I'm sure those in charge of the budget would like to make the process as complicated as possible).
First post and a rant. Yay
Is there any organised opposition to this?
Last edited by benndant on 14 Oct 2011 06:59, edited 1 time in total.
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digime2007
- Posts: 258
- Joined: 10 Sep 2007 18:26
- Location: Sydenhham
There are petitions against everything around here. Whenever anyone tries to do anything you can guarantee someone is going complain.benndant wrote: Is there any organised opposition to this?
You can't please everyone all of the time but you can stall progress by making little lists of signatures.
BTW I'm not much into the mosaic idea either. Couldn't we make Catford an offer of, say, a tenner for their giant cat? We could then stick it where all those free-range drinkers hangout and freak them out. Maybe they'll run away and we won't need to upset Bensonby by 'illegally' moving them on.
I think someone might have suggested this in another post but maybe, and I say it very cautiously, a compromise would be:
1. Do up the Naroborhood centre aka Leenewham's design, ie: keep the current decorative element, paint the building white and add vertical colourful blinds to keep its modern look (I don't know if the windows need any specific work or replacing). Make the railings look better in some way, maybe they could be painted or replaced with something more attractive and tactile, a window box-style planter could be hung on it maybe and maybe some potted bays or something at the entrance to the centre itself.
Only once this is done....
2. And, put a mosaic on that dreary wall that faces you as you walk past the Narborhood centre (I think it is the side of a shop which juts out quite a bit). That way passersby would actually get a chance to look at it.
If the mosaic is on the Narborhood building itself the only people I can see really getting a chance to look at it would be motorists stuck in traffic. I can't see people looking up at it as they walk by, on either side of the road. Can anyone else?
I have noticed recently that Lewisham Carers' centre in Forest Hill has been given a really lovely facelift. It too has a small mosaic near the entrance which actually looks quite pretty.
The building is just past the railway bridge on the south circ just after FH town centre on the right in a little cut through road that takes you behind FH train station. Well-deserved I am sure, but surely the Narborhood centre would be a good candidate for such renovation too.
1. Do up the Naroborhood centre aka Leenewham's design, ie: keep the current decorative element, paint the building white and add vertical colourful blinds to keep its modern look (I don't know if the windows need any specific work or replacing). Make the railings look better in some way, maybe they could be painted or replaced with something more attractive and tactile, a window box-style planter could be hung on it maybe and maybe some potted bays or something at the entrance to the centre itself.
Only once this is done....
2. And, put a mosaic on that dreary wall that faces you as you walk past the Narborhood centre (I think it is the side of a shop which juts out quite a bit). That way passersby would actually get a chance to look at it.
If the mosaic is on the Narborhood building itself the only people I can see really getting a chance to look at it would be motorists stuck in traffic. I can't see people looking up at it as they walk by, on either side of the road. Can anyone else?
I have noticed recently that Lewisham Carers' centre in Forest Hill has been given a really lovely facelift. It too has a small mosaic near the entrance which actually looks quite pretty.
The building is just past the railway bridge on the south circ just after FH town centre on the right in a little cut through road that takes you behind FH train station. Well-deserved I am sure, but surely the Narborhood centre would be a good candidate for such renovation too.
I also vote no
Attempts/ offers to do up the high street are very welcome and I am certain those proposing this are well-intentioned
However, I echo so much of what has already been said in declining the offer. I dont like mosaics, I associate them with seventies town centre treatments and I think our high street looks enough like that already. I also do not see how a mosaic would compliment the architecture of the building : it would be as welcome as stone cladding and about as relevant
Attempts/ offers to do up the high street are very welcome and I am certain those proposing this are well-intentioned
However, I echo so much of what has already been said in declining the offer. I dont like mosaics, I associate them with seventies town centre treatments and I think our high street looks enough like that already. I also do not see how a mosaic would compliment the architecture of the building : it would be as welcome as stone cladding and about as relevant
mosaic
Hi,
I'm new to the site and have just read some of the current threads.
Perhaps this has been discussed previously, apologies if it has - does anyone know about the procurement process for this project ie, how the artist was chosen for the project? For such a large scale project I would imagine that there has been a process of advertising/filtering applications via a committee, a forum for Sydenham residents to vote for the key artists proposals chosen including the medium? - that's usually the process for producing any arts projects/programmes. I would be really interested in seeing the artists proposals.
This forum is really useful as I had not heard about this project until I came onto this site.
I do share many of the concerns that people have highlighted such as the re-development of the Nabourhood Centre, the bricked up flats next to the Catholic church - which I have asked Chris Best if she could find out what is happening when she visited our area over 3 -4 weeks ago- as yet we haven't heard anything from her. If she contacts me I'll post the info.
I'm new to the site and have just read some of the current threads.
Perhaps this has been discussed previously, apologies if it has - does anyone know about the procurement process for this project ie, how the artist was chosen for the project? For such a large scale project I would imagine that there has been a process of advertising/filtering applications via a committee, a forum for Sydenham residents to vote for the key artists proposals chosen including the medium? - that's usually the process for producing any arts projects/programmes. I would be really interested in seeing the artists proposals.
This forum is really useful as I had not heard about this project until I came onto this site.
I do share many of the concerns that people have highlighted such as the re-development of the Nabourhood Centre, the bricked up flats next to the Catholic church - which I have asked Chris Best if she could find out what is happening when she visited our area over 3 -4 weeks ago- as yet we haven't heard anything from her. If she contacts me I'll post the info.
Hi Newbie,
There was no procurement process as such, The mosaic was a proposed by an individual who applied to the Sydenham Assembly for £10,000 towards an estimated £50,000 total. Anyone can apply to the Assembly for funds, which the Assembly then votes for, or against. There is a filtering process by the coordinators group but that looks more at the wether the proposal is suitable for consideration by the Assembly, rather than the merits or details of the proposal.
People voting against the mosaic on here would be better off voting against it at the Assembly, but some people can't attend the meetings.
As I said above, it is precisely the lack of consultation that has doomed the mosaic project and had it been through the process you describe it would probably have more support. That said, there is surely something to be said for someone taking inititiative and proposing something for people to vote on rather than having schemes stifled by an anonymous comittee.
There was no procurement process as such, The mosaic was a proposed by an individual who applied to the Sydenham Assembly for £10,000 towards an estimated £50,000 total. Anyone can apply to the Assembly for funds, which the Assembly then votes for, or against. There is a filtering process by the coordinators group but that looks more at the wether the proposal is suitable for consideration by the Assembly, rather than the merits or details of the proposal.
People voting against the mosaic on here would be better off voting against it at the Assembly, but some people can't attend the meetings.
As I said above, it is precisely the lack of consultation that has doomed the mosaic project and had it been through the process you describe it would probably have more support. That said, there is surely something to be said for someone taking inititiative and proposing something for people to vote on rather than having schemes stifled by an anonymous comittee.
This is broadly my view as well. Although I'm not 'anti' mosaic I don't think the idea is keeping with the architecture of the building.MiniFox wrote:I also vote no
Attempts/ offers to do up the high street are very welcome and I am certain those proposing this are well-intentioned
However, I echo so much of what has already been said in declining the offer. I dont like mosaics, I associate them with seventies town centre treatments and I think our high street looks enough like that already. I also do not see how a mosaic would compliment the architecture of the building : it would be as welcome as stone cladding and about as relevant
I do think a £10k investment in some public art in Sydenham would be welcomed, I just don't think this is the right project.
Whatever happened to the dragon-esque Sydenham emblem idea BTW...I'd be happy to see £10k invested in that!
I have split debate into the Green Dragon into a separate thread: http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3739Weeble wrote:Whatever happened to the dragon-esque Sydenham emblem idea BTW...I'd be happy to see £10k invested in that!
Admin
This is broadly my view as well. Although I'm not 'anti' mosaic I don't think the idea is keeping with the architecture of the building.Weeble wrote:MiniFox wrote:I also vote no
Attempts/ offers to do up the high street are very welcome and I am certain those proposing this are well-intentioned
However, I echo so much of what has already been said in declining the offer. I dont like mosaics, I associate them with seventies town centre treatments and I think our high street looks enough like that already. I also do not see how a mosaic would compliment the architecture of the building : it would be as welcome as stone cladding and about as relevant
Weeble, You are quite right to pull me up on my dismissiveness of mosaics, per se. I suppose municipal ones just tend to look... uninspiring. There are some that work, I am sure, I just have never seen any. Beyond Park Guell...
But you are right. The two key objections are: lack of consultation & impact of any project upon surrounding architecture
Well to be honest I'm not a huge fan of mosaic more generally either. 
Even in the right context it's not entirely my cup of tea (didn't even bother with Parc Guell when I was in Barcelona!)
And I just don't think it works in the context of the high street - it jars both with the Naborhood Centre and with the other architectural styles in the area.
I don't want to condemn the idea just because it's not to my own personal taste, but on the other hand it sounds like I'm not in the minority on this.
Even in the right context it's not entirely my cup of tea (didn't even bother with Parc Guell when I was in Barcelona!)
And I just don't think it works in the context of the high street - it jars both with the Naborhood Centre and with the other architectural styles in the area.
I don't want to condemn the idea just because it's not to my own personal taste, but on the other hand it sounds like I'm not in the minority on this.
Re: NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
This is our last chance to object to these proposals, which have been submitted to planning.
Deadline is today, but planning may take them in next few days. Get in soon.
The proposal, and address for objections is here:
http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... mkey=63034
You need to expand the images of the mosaic considerably in order to see what is proposed for the front of this building in the middle of our high street - including the most tasteless image of a kitten in jug.
Many of the arguments against the mosaic have been made earlier in this thread, but here are mine:
1. Protection of the Historic Environment:
a. The Naborhood Centre is in close proximity to the Sydenham Thorpes Conservation Area. The Conservation Area Character Appraisal is a material consideration in the determination of planning applications. On Figure 42 ‘The Townscape Analysis of the Conservation Area’ the Naborhood Centre is marked as a landmark. It can be inferred therefore that due to this status, the preservation of the appearance of the building is important to the character of the Conservation Area.
b. Paragraph 4.8 of the Proposed Submission Version of the Core Strategy notes that “local, including historic, character will be at the heart of new design.”
c. Furthermore, Spatial Policy 3 notes that Conservation Areas will continue to be protected and development will need to preserve or enhance their quality and character. In particular, for Sydenham it is noted that the Council aim to “ensure the preservation or enhancement of the town centre's historic character, and that of the surrounding
residential areas, through Conservation Area status.”
The proposals in this application do not complement the historic Edwardian character of the area.
The Applicant does not justify the proposals in planning policy terms and, therefore, I argue that the applicant needs to provide additional information on how the proposals comply with policy.
2. Views from the Conservation Area
The Conservation Area Character Appraisal notes that the sloping nature of the site contributes to a series of attractive views along its long straight streets. There are a number of significant views into and out of the Conservation Area. The view of Naborhood Centre is one of the views identified (Figure 42 in the Character Appraisal).
Altering the fascia of the Naborhood Centre, replacing it with a mosaic, is not in keeping and will detract from the significant view along Queensthorpe Road.
3. Shopfronts
In Unitary Development Plan Policy URB 8 ‘Shropfronts,’ the Council seek to establish and maintain shopfronts of a high quality design by seeking to retain shop fronts of quality, either original to the building or of particular value. The Policy adds that any new shop fronts should relate well to the original framework. The Policy provides additional guidance in relation to shopfronts in Conservation Areas. It requires all new shopfronts and advertisements to relate well to existing buildings and street scene.
Given the proximity of the site to the Sydenham Thorpes Conservation Area, these additional criteria are of relevance.
The proposals do not relate well to the existing street scene.
4. Appropriateness of design
The proposed design does not achieve its stated intention of celebrating the history and achievements of Sydenham. It has a culturally inappropriate and insensitive focus on the work of a few white men. This is a multicultural and ethnically diverse area. It is especially disappointing to see this narrow view of history proposed for a public building which the council itself owns.
5. Damage to the nabourhood centre
This modernist building already includes an artwork, a panel of decorative brickwork in a honeycomb pattern. The proposals clearly show its removal. This artwork - like the rest of the building - needs cleaning and maintenance but it would be a shame to remove it simply for that reason.
Get your objection in now!
Deadline is today, but planning may take them in next few days. Get in soon.
The proposal, and address for objections is here:
http://acolnet.lewisham.gov.uk/LEWIS-XS ... mkey=63034
You need to expand the images of the mosaic considerably in order to see what is proposed for the front of this building in the middle of our high street - including the most tasteless image of a kitten in jug.
Many of the arguments against the mosaic have been made earlier in this thread, but here are mine:
1. Protection of the Historic Environment:
a. The Naborhood Centre is in close proximity to the Sydenham Thorpes Conservation Area. The Conservation Area Character Appraisal is a material consideration in the determination of planning applications. On Figure 42 ‘The Townscape Analysis of the Conservation Area’ the Naborhood Centre is marked as a landmark. It can be inferred therefore that due to this status, the preservation of the appearance of the building is important to the character of the Conservation Area.
b. Paragraph 4.8 of the Proposed Submission Version of the Core Strategy notes that “local, including historic, character will be at the heart of new design.”
c. Furthermore, Spatial Policy 3 notes that Conservation Areas will continue to be protected and development will need to preserve or enhance their quality and character. In particular, for Sydenham it is noted that the Council aim to “ensure the preservation or enhancement of the town centre's historic character, and that of the surrounding
residential areas, through Conservation Area status.”
The proposals in this application do not complement the historic Edwardian character of the area.
The Applicant does not justify the proposals in planning policy terms and, therefore, I argue that the applicant needs to provide additional information on how the proposals comply with policy.
2. Views from the Conservation Area
The Conservation Area Character Appraisal notes that the sloping nature of the site contributes to a series of attractive views along its long straight streets. There are a number of significant views into and out of the Conservation Area. The view of Naborhood Centre is one of the views identified (Figure 42 in the Character Appraisal).
Altering the fascia of the Naborhood Centre, replacing it with a mosaic, is not in keeping and will detract from the significant view along Queensthorpe Road.
3. Shopfronts
In Unitary Development Plan Policy URB 8 ‘Shropfronts,’ the Council seek to establish and maintain shopfronts of a high quality design by seeking to retain shop fronts of quality, either original to the building or of particular value. The Policy adds that any new shop fronts should relate well to the original framework. The Policy provides additional guidance in relation to shopfronts in Conservation Areas. It requires all new shopfronts and advertisements to relate well to existing buildings and street scene.
Given the proximity of the site to the Sydenham Thorpes Conservation Area, these additional criteria are of relevance.
The proposals do not relate well to the existing street scene.
4. Appropriateness of design
The proposed design does not achieve its stated intention of celebrating the history and achievements of Sydenham. It has a culturally inappropriate and insensitive focus on the work of a few white men. This is a multicultural and ethnically diverse area. It is especially disappointing to see this narrow view of history proposed for a public building which the council itself owns.
5. Damage to the nabourhood centre
This modernist building already includes an artwork, a panel of decorative brickwork in a honeycomb pattern. The proposals clearly show its removal. This artwork - like the rest of the building - needs cleaning and maintenance but it would be a shame to remove it simply for that reason.
Get your objection in now!
Re: NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
I find comment no 4 above just a tad dismissive of the achievements of historical local figures on account of their skin colour. I get where Thorpie is coming from, but I find that way the comment is worded just a tad…uncomfortable.
I'm not sure how the images in the mosaic were chosen, perhaps there is a story as to why there appears to be a cat in a jug. At least I hope there is a good reason, perhaps all the images haven't been chosen yet as I can't make out a few of them and have no idea what some are depicting.
I'm quite amazed that only now after years has planning permission been sought after £10,000 of local assembly public money has been invested in this.
Anyway, make up your own mind as to what it will look like:
I seem to have upset the whole of the Sydenham Society by posting this thread originally which was never my intention! Neither was it my intention to upset the people behind this scheme. I think it's great that there is a feeling of community spirit in Sydenham and that people want to improve the area.
However, I still feel as, I always have, that this scheme is not right for the style of building which still needs to have the windows painted, better blinds in the windows to replace the rather tatty looking net curtains and the other parts redecorated and fixed, like the canopy. Unless these are fixed there is no point sticking art to the outside and all those things aren't cheap.
I suggested that a mosaic of this sort would be more suitable either in the recesses of the bridge by the station (to which I was told, rather incredibly, that it could prove to be a dangerous distraction to drivers!!!) or outside Sydenham Station in the natural wall recesses near the public toilets or the concrete fence immediately outside the station. Mosaics look good when contained in a space like the one on the Horniman. Sometimes images just need a frame rather than being sprawled across a surface.
If it does fail to get planning permission, what will happen to all the parts of the mosaic that have already been paid for and made? Is the above image final and what's the story behind the kitten in a jug?
I'm not sure how the images in the mosaic were chosen, perhaps there is a story as to why there appears to be a cat in a jug. At least I hope there is a good reason, perhaps all the images haven't been chosen yet as I can't make out a few of them and have no idea what some are depicting.
I'm quite amazed that only now after years has planning permission been sought after £10,000 of local assembly public money has been invested in this.
Anyway, make up your own mind as to what it will look like:
I seem to have upset the whole of the Sydenham Society by posting this thread originally which was never my intention! Neither was it my intention to upset the people behind this scheme. I think it's great that there is a feeling of community spirit in Sydenham and that people want to improve the area.
However, I still feel as, I always have, that this scheme is not right for the style of building which still needs to have the windows painted, better blinds in the windows to replace the rather tatty looking net curtains and the other parts redecorated and fixed, like the canopy. Unless these are fixed there is no point sticking art to the outside and all those things aren't cheap.
I suggested that a mosaic of this sort would be more suitable either in the recesses of the bridge by the station (to which I was told, rather incredibly, that it could prove to be a dangerous distraction to drivers!!!) or outside Sydenham Station in the natural wall recesses near the public toilets or the concrete fence immediately outside the station. Mosaics look good when contained in a space like the one on the Horniman. Sometimes images just need a frame rather than being sprawled across a surface.
If it does fail to get planning permission, what will happen to all the parts of the mosaic that have already been paid for and made? Is the above image final and what's the story behind the kitten in a jug?
Re: NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
I'm not inspired either I'm afraid. I think a simple but good quality make-over aka one of your What Ifs would be money a lot better spent....