Newlands Park Murder?

[CaptainCarCrash]

Big Society is a bit of a con because it replaces proper funded help with good Samaritans and although its a nice gesture to mo lady old's grass, ooh err missus! its doing things on the cheap.

I can see it as a double edged sword that will no doubt come back to haunt Disco Dave. Without reciting a cliche its just a way for the government to shirk responsibility and to deflect some of the impact of his too much too soon cuts criticism the Tories are receiving.

I hate the Tories, they are all wronguns.

On that note did anyone see this?


http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/News/ ... ws-member/

I don't see this as being bad for the Tories, I see it more as being a bit of a tarnish on the credibility of the outlaws pre-initiation ceremony vetting.

Why the hell would the let a Tory into their club????????

[Eagle]

Am I given to understand you do not like The Conservative and Unionist party and all who sail with her.
Very sweeping , but of course your entitlement.
What has The Big Society discussion got to do with Newlands Park Murder , which would appear to be the heading.

[bensonby]

Right, I let’s pick apart some of the stuff people have said on this thread and look at it logically and the problems of crime, in the light of this horrific murder, holistically.

Not, I fear, that it will make much different to some peoples’ hand wringing, fingers of blame, and pseudo-theories about policing and crime prevention tactics.

I left the Train at Penge East to go to my Home in Venner Road ( which I still own ( Duchess)) I did witness as you rightly say umpteen ticket Inspectors, BTP, and Met Police in numbers, checking tickets at Penge East, as you say; and Yes I also thought , why are the Met helping out BTP cacthing ticket evaders , not real criminals ?

There is a central assumption here that fare evaders are not, in some way “real” criminals – which is the first point that needs to be addressed here: it also comes along with several other assumptions.

Firstly, what makes a crime a “real” crime (in some rather dubious political sense no doubt)....the victims of a crime like fare evasion, or shoplifting, or driving without insurance or not taxing your car or whatever is that it directly affects those people that do pay for a service and because of those who do not pay through the fact that the honest are left with higher prices and less money in their pockets.

Secondly, are you aware how many people are arrested on these sorts of operations? – Lots. Not merely for not paying but for other offences that are picked up – people that have no respect for more “minor” laws often do not have respect for more “major” laws as well. Plenty of people are regularly arrested for drugs offences, carrying weapons, being wanted by the courts for pretty much anything and so on and so forth on these sort of operations.
Thirdly, Lots of arrests means the need for lots of police officers – if only a constable or two was posted then after the first couple of arrests (in the first few minutes often) then the operation would be over and whoever else comes through will not have to pass by the officer s and not be caught.

Fourthly, your post implied that they could be out catching “real” criminals – which suggests that there are other places they could be deployed to do just that (and that they are not doing that at a train station on a specific operation). Where exactly would this be? Is there any indication, to your knowledge, that targeted patrolling in a specific area, relating to specific intelligence is being neglected? Or would you rather they were bumbling around aimlessly? Would that be a better use of resources? (we’ll come onto the usefulness or otherwise of foot patrolling in due course)

Back too the point, more Police are needed on the street and not buried in admin and its hand cuffing " Elf en Safety" rules that, some one imposed on it.

OK, so we ditch the paperwork that police officers have to do – or lots of it – so we end up with a less accountable police force. Would you be happy with that?
If you, or anyone else, had cause to complain about the police would you be happy for there to have been no records kept so the matter can’t be investigated. Or, for police not to write reports properly and thoroughly so that people get off in the courts, or, for reports that get passed on to other agencies where there is concern for vulnerable people not to be written and then subsequently those people don’t get the help they need. Is any of that acceptable?

What specific forms or paperwork do you suggest we get rid of? There are a few I can think of, but it wouldn’t cut down on the paperwork that much in the grand scheme of things.

I think the Police may have got the culpritts on this one, as HD says. It would have been much better to prevent it than detect it though.

Prevention of crime is a core function of the police service – but it has been shown time and time again that policing alone cannot affect crime rates much overall (cf. Wilson, Ashton & Sharp 2001 pp.50-56 et al. if you’re interested). How, specifically, could the police have prevented this particular crime from happening. What did the police do that was wrong here? I’m genuinely curious to know.
Crime is a very complicated social and economic issue of which the police only play a small part.

Anti-social behaviour should be targeted, and the police should be given more powers (IMO) to deal with offenders,

So ASB leads to murder? The police have plenty of powers to deal with ASB – perhaps even too many: There are lots of illiberal and draconian powers available if they so wish for them to be employed. There is also a plethora of definitions of what actually constitutes ASB with some pretty dubious ideas in some sections of society that seem to think that any given behaviour is “anti social” purely because various (vocal) elements of the society see it “irritating”. (cf. Squires 2008 or Millie 2009 for good overviews)

That part of Newlands park is isolated

That simply isn’t true is it?

Street crime of all degrees is on the rise throughout Penge and Sydenham.

Really? Can you quantify that? How do you know this?

Is it not time that the community made greater demands on the powers that be to challenge those that commit the crimes and deter the carrying of knives.

So what, specifically, would you like to happen that hasn’t been happening already?

, community policing that approach groups of youths and stop and search them,

Apart from the fact that there is an outcry every time someone writes an article that too many people are being stopped and searched the Met does tens of thousands of stops every month - http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/prior ... r_2010.pdf

Soo that’s already being done – as for community policing is concerned each ward has a safer Neighbourhoods Team now - since 2004 – so that, too, is being done.

more cctv at bus stops and stations.

There is more of this than there ever has been. In fact, almost every London bus now has CCTV on board, as well as al stations etc.

Harass those that want to commit crime on our streets

The problem is many in the press and public complain that police are “harassing” people when they do aggressive stop and search operations (which they still do I might add) – the problem is that invariably innocent people will be stopped: criminals don’t go around wearing badges.

ty its time we demanded protection aand prevention. Petitions, letters to members of parliament and local authorities are a beginning.

But what SPECIFICALLY do you want?

We cannot just accept that a minority law breaking underclass will always be robbing and killing on our streets.

But the sad fact of the matter is that there will always be those people, no matter what the consequences, who will go out and commit crime. Short of a police constable on every corner (are you prepared to pay for that?) If someone is desperate to commit a crime they will go ahead and do it.
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So everyone do something beyond debating it online please.

I am thanks. However, debating this sort of thing online is also a good medium – both to share ideas and to explain the situation to people who otherwise might not be in the know.

you occassionally see the BTP on the trains, but very rarely any Met police foot patrols.

This has been addressed above but I thought I’d add to it.


A constable on foot, as a general patrol, wandering the streets as part of a daily beat is of limited use. Granted, people like to see him out and about, but in terms of presence he only provides it in the immediate area where he is for the short time that he is there. There simply aren’t enough officers to “flood” everywhere or, indeed, many places. Yes, there are intangible benefits to public confidence. However, how will that confidence be affected if police were unable to answer 999 calls, and other calls for assistance, if they are stuck on foot a long way from where the call comes out from? In terms of tangible benefits of “crime reduction” etc. the patrolling police officer, again, seems to have little effect: if you are interested there are two good studies from the USA The Kansas City Preventative Patrol Experiment and a very similar one in Newark NJ (the name of which escapes me at present).

Yes, targeted patrols, on foot or in vehicles, through Intelligence Lead Policing can have some effect: However, is there any indication that this is not happening already?

Let’s lay off the hysterics shall we and actually have a moderately informed debate.....this was a horrendous crime, and a terrific shock, but let’s not lose focus and start our knees jerking.

[Hill Dweller]

Well said that man or woman

[posy]

Any reaction kneejerk or otherwise may be better than doing nothing and arguing how impossible it is to do anything. This country suffers from terminal apathy and expecting our second rate inexperienced politicians of any party to have common sense resolutions is pointless when you are not demanding and aiding those solutions. I suggest you reach home before sundown and stay safe indoors at night. With some of the attitudes here this area is going to become like Dodge city and its short sighted inhabitants won,t be doing anything useful to prevent it.

[bensonby]

what on earth are you talking about? Where, precisely, did I say that there is "nothing" to be done or that change is "impossible"?

I merely made a reasoned and detailed post that contained evidence to back up my points. Something that seems to be lacking in many other posts.

[Eagle]

I think the Police should be allowed to stop and check anyone without having to fill out any form.
I have never been stopped and searched but if it would help a safer environment I would be happy to assist and comply.
Problem is only a small proportion of criminals are actually caught and convicted so those who are should be heavily punished,

[posy]

Well said Eagle. As for reasoned picky arguments that is mistaking genuine concern about being able to be safe on our streets for hysteria. One should have an emotion about an innocent person losing their life on our streets for fear he Sam not be the last if something constructive is not done. I have heard enough plausible , reasoned arguments backed up by evidence. They torrent from the mouths of Cameron and Clegg as they discriminate against the ordinary folk of this country as they send us to hell in a handcart so I really cannot do anything but dismiss such underdone trite debate. It avails nothing.

[bensonby]

Eagle, do you have any idea why stop slips were introduced?

Do you really suggest a return to the bad old days if swamp '81? We all know where that got us.

Well said Eagle. As for reasoned picky arguments that is mistaking genuine concern about being able to be safe on our streets for hysteria. One should have an emotion about an innocent person losing their life on our streets for fear he Sam not be the last if something constructive is not done. I have heard enough plausible , reasoned arguments backed up by evidence. They torrent from the mouths of Cameron and Clegg as they discriminate against the ordinary folk of this country as they send us to hell in a handcart so I really cannot do anything but dismiss such underdone trite debate. It avails nothing.

So we should dispense with reasoned debate and replace it with an emotional response?

Great, let the hue and cry commence: you bring the pitchforks, I'll supply the flaming torches.....

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Hill Dweller]

If S&S forms are not filled in it leaves the Police open to accusations of picking on certain communities.


I like that we have the proof that they do not if they don't.


I also like the fact (very much) that it was at a S&S in Streatham (18m or so ago) that the Officers received radio news of the killing that had just happened at the Ice Rink a few minutes earlier. It just so happened they had stopped the very car

[Eagle]

Bensonby
Surely people of good will would not mind being politely stopped and questioned if it was for the general good.
Form filling takes too much time.

[bensonby]

Eagle,

unfortunately many of the people that the police gave dealings with are not "people of goodwill" - especially those that the police might wish to stop and search or to ask them to account for themselves.

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[Voyageur]

Anti-social behaviour should be targeted, and the police should be given more powers (IMO) to deal with offenders,

So ASB leads to murder? The police have plenty of powers to deal with ASB – perhaps even too many: There are lots of illiberal and draconian powers available if they so wish for them to be employed. There is also a plethora of definitions of what actually constitutes ASB with some pretty dubious ideas in some sections of society that seem to think that any given behaviour is “anti social” purely because various (vocal) elements of the society see it “irritating”. (cf. Squires 2008 or Millie 2009 for good overviews)

The police officers that I know feel that they do not have adequate powers to deal with low level ASB - or that the courts deal adequately with the problem. I am not a police officer so can only go by their opinions, whether or not they differ from yours.

I personally feel that low level ASB often leads to higher level crime - I am more than happy for you not to agree , it won't change my view.

[Eagle]

Yes anti social behaviour is a real problem. People's life can be made a misery.

[Dorian]

I think the point is that the Police , as Bensonby said , can not be all things , and every where to everyone regardless of policy or regime. The issue is a broken society generally and the lawlessness and the disregard for life that this society has spawned. Call it " Big Society" or what you want, old values need to come back where neighbours are more than the people you live around.

[posy]

ASB often leads to criminal behaviour murder and lesser crimes which is why it should be nipped in the bud. It takes boldness and a disregard of the law and of others to carry a knife. It is precisely the same attitude held by a shoplifter or car thief or the persons that throw a large noisy party all night in your neighbourhood. It all stems from an arrogant disrespectful state of mind and deserves to be curbed for the common good. As for hue & cry or pitchforks how droll! is it uncool to feel emotional that a young man alone on a street had his life taken painfully and violently. Is it wrong to hope the community will make demands of and give positive suggestions to local authorities to prevent street crime. Nothing will improve without local people participating

[Hill Dweller]

It's obvious you are very emotional about this dreadful occurrence Posy but emotion isn't what can carry the day.

We don't need to compete to show the level of our outrage do we?

The killer has to be dealt with unemotionally and as has been said earlier today (by you or an.other?) the shocking laying of blame at the wrong doors is saddening.
Not as saddening as the loss of this exemplary guy but still saddening.


ASBOs - so a few idiots regard them as badges of dishonour?
Big deal, when they realise they can be imprisoned for breaching the conditions of theirs, although they were not imprisonable for their earlier behaviour, perhaps they'll wake up to what ASBOs really can affect about their behaviour.

[Dorian]

It's obvious you are very emotional about this dreadful occurrence Posy but emotion isn't what can carry the day.

Sorry , That is a most condescending , self important comment, HD. People can comment here as they wish , with out your odious commentry on there motivation. Try responding to the point and not making observations on the motivation.

Yes , I hope the killer is caught and dealt with as they should be , but I doubt the latter will occur.

[Hill Dweller]

Try being objective about me and my posts D.

That would require you making the same pompous comment to all those that have posted re their knowledge that emotion is not what is needed.

Were I to behave as you do (I make/judge that as subjectively) I would suggest Posy stops posting and gets out there to set us all an example.


Thing is that either activity prevents the other doesn't it D?


JUST as a cop's presence at one place prevents them being at another and who's to know which crimes they did prevent at the former?



Back to re-visit this one.
I happen to have always believed in the 'Reclaim the Night' actions of some years ago and continue to do so in a small way, often going out for walks in the early hours, there's something so fabulous about the swishing in the trees this high up.
I'm lucky to feel safe, I could easily be wrong on one occasion.....
I would never, ever, tell someone else to do the same or suggest they don't live as normally as they want to
I would never instil others with the fear of a certain area because (again as has already been said by an.other) there's nothing so sad as the fear of fear itself and the local paper's front page that we were favoured with is not conducive to a happy neighbourhood imhoo.
We all know what we are capable of and some of us are also wise enough to know what we could spoil by claiming our twopennorth of a Michael Winner scene.

[Hill Dweller]

Yes , I hope the killer is caught and dealt with as they should be , but I doubt the latter will occur.

I'm sure you know a 35yr old has been arrested.