Newlands Park Murder?

[Kate R Park]

Let's not be taken in by Theresa May's glib 'only 11%' ever being out on the streets at any one time. Such a figure must be counting every Officer's 24/7 and not counting hours off-duty.

I wasn't aware of that quote, but take most MP's statistical spoutings with a large pinch of salt.

I've been in the area for 4 years now, and can probably count the number of times I've seen foot patrols on one hand. Of course, I'm largely not around during the day, and could be missing much. I'm aware that there are far worse areas in the SE26 locale, and that cars are essential for faster response times, but in terms of a deterrent, vehicles are just a fleeting presence.

Let's hope that the shop CCTV will reveal more than just the victim's movements, or that the station has working cameras which will help. Or perhaps that the assailants own stupidity will get him caught, as seems to happen in many similar cases.

[Westredd]

Westredd

Posts: 1


LOL, I'm always amused by such 'newbie' hitters and runners.
Are you really a newbie or another member in a special frock for that post?

Hello Hill Dweller,

First - Check the date I joined this forum . i joined in 2005. I've been a member probably longer than 99% of the members here, not that its in anyway important as you seem to think that might be.

Second - This thread is about a murder, not about whether the members have posted 1 or 298 times. Just becuase you have posted more than me, doesnt give your opinion any more importance.

So funny when people have posted on a forum 100s of times, they think they own the place and have a snobbish attitude to those that appear to be new. So bug off with your crap Hill Dweller.

[Westredd]

No Police presence on that side of the station. Oh hang on, no I'm wrong. There are plenty of Police there when the transport ticket inspectors are doing a spot check at the Newlands exit.
Fantastic work by the Police. Trying to catch out fare dodgers while young scumbags are stabbing and killing decent contributors to society. This guy was gonna be a teacher, pay his taxes etc.

You would be referring to Police whose entire duty is on public transport.

The clue would be in what is printed on their jackets - Transport Police.

As stated above ..... choose the right person/s to blame OR try to join up and really meet the bill (no pun intended).

No sir. Yes there are transport Police present, and yes I have noted that by the clue you pointed out in your patronising way(Transport Police being written on their jackets). As well as the transport Police there are also non transport Police officers present (yes the ones that are supposed to be catching criminals, not babysitting transport Police). They usually stand outside the exit.

Choose to look closer at the difference stated above next time you are walking through the inspectors.

[Westredd]

Yup - this was definitely murder at the hands of the police

Get real will you. We could certainly do with more coppers on the beat, but they can't be everywhere at all times. This was a killing carried out by some cowardly lowlife - the police didn't force anyone's (knife) hand.

Hi,

~I wasnt saying it was at the hands of the Police. Of course it wasnt. I was just making the point that they put resource at the station to back up inspectors/transport Police when there is scum walking around a few hundred yards away which is where their attentions should be.. This event just highlights that point.

[Hill Dweller]

However you might want to represent yourself and however long you might have been registered as a member .... albeit without posting before Westredd ..... YOU chose to make your first post (after years of registration without posting) a dismissive one about the Police.

The FACTS that early arrests have been made in both the recent Sydenham murders has not elicited from you any attempt at amelioration of your eventual initiation post.
Nor any claim that you don't/can't expect prevention.

So exactly what is it you are trying to defend about your numero uno peculiar post Westredd?

Apprise; I'm agog ..... agog I tell you.


Late edit/re-entry in to this one.
Westredd, re your 'patronising' comment about my reply to your post.
I rather think it is you that is comitting that behaviour.
I try not to 'do' dissing people in their absence.
I find that patronising and even worse than that..... I find it cowardly.
Soooooo westredd, why don't you go place your value judgements about how the Police do their job on a Police forum? They do exist.
Diss Officers to their 'faces', not in a place where you must have been disappointed when seeking agreement/support for your pathetic critique.
Credit AND blame where it belongs westredd.


.

[Dorian]

I wasnt saying it was at the hands of the Police. Of course it wasnt. I was just making the point that they put resource at the station to back up inspectors/transport Police when there is scum walking around a few hundred yards away which is where their attentions should be.. This event just highlights that point.

Westedd, for many years, and frequently now, I left the Train at Penge East to go to my Home in Venner Road ( which I still own ( Duchess)) I did witness as you rightly say umpteen ticket Inspectors, BTP, and Met Police in numbers, checking tickets at Penge East, as you say; and Yes I also thought , why are the Met helping out BTP cacthing ticket evaders , not real criminals ?

I too am not a prolific poster, I dont understand the apparent need for a " Posting frequency " hierarchy ?

Back too the point, more Police are needed on the street and not buried in admin and its hand cuffing " Elf en Safety" rules that, some one imposed on it. I think the Police may have got the culpritts on this one, as HD says. It would have been much better to prevent it than detect it though.

I think that was your point .

RIP, Mr. Guidera.

[Voyageur]

~I wasnt saying it was at the hands of the Police. Of c

ourse it wasnt. I was just making the point that they put resource at the station to back up inspectors/transport Police when there is scum walking around a few hundred yards away which is where their attentions should be.. This event just highlights that point.

Anti-social behaviour should be targeted, and the police should be given more powers (IMO) to deal with offenders, but as has been said many times by locals since the murder, such a crime is rare for the street in question. Following your logic, the police must 'man' every street in the UK 24/7

As for transport police manning barriers to assist in catching fare dodgers, I am all for this. Bring it on! I hugely resent paying for my travel whilst some others bump my ticket price up by deciding that they can't be arsed to pay.

[admin]

Can I make it clear ONCE AGAIN that the ethos of this Forum is to be "an enjoyable and informative place to discuss Sydenham".

That this particular thread is about a deadly serious subject with which some of us have very strong feelings is no excuse for attacks on other posters. All are equally welcome to put, question and defend opinion.

Attack the opinion, NOT the person.

Admin

Edit: I have moved discussion on moderation of this to Town Asylum

[Dorian]

A relevant article

http://edition.pagesuite-professional.c ... 6a9c&skip=

[Hill Dweller]

The headline refers to a 'horribly deserted' area.
Whenever I have been at that bus stop I have considered it anything but deserted, one is within feet of at least a dozen inhabited living rooms and just across the road from dozens more.

I really don't think hysteria is the reaction that should be being whipped up.

Edit: the article itself also refers to the area as a hot spot, whereas this link :
http://maps.met.police.uk/
shows it as average (still not desirable), admittedly with a big change during Jan '11.

[Dorian]

I really don't think hysteria is the reaction that should be being whipped up.

I dont think the writer for that newspaper was attempting whip up hysteria, I did not feel " hysteria" when I read it ? She was purportedly quoting a local resident. The Police data shows that crime in the area has trebled from December to January and therefore one would expect a greater Police presence at these type of locations. I do accept that the Police are too stretched and covering too wide an area on limited rescources or bogged down with paperwork rather than Policing.

[Hill Dweller]

Despite all the paperwork though it seems to me that the stats produced are useless.
That's down to the questions that are asked and the restricted answers possible (likely to be multiple choice and not the person's own words).

If we have a cop on board it would be great to have insider comment!

I'm not sure how much use May's 'crime map' is when the raw figures could be describing any crime at all or when a postcode is not at all indicative of the size of population or the area.

It's all too broad-stroke to be any more than pseudo info, placating the populace as if we're kids.


Edit: Clicking on the Newlands Rd zone of the map in my previous link yes, you're right that the 'Trends' tab shows a big increase in Jan '11 but that's following on from decreases in both Nov/Dec '10 from the same months in '09.
Stats eh ..... Late addtn: They can all be distorted by something as simple as one month having five weekends instead of four etc.

.

[Hill Dweller]

I dont think the writer for that newspaper was attempting whip up hysteria, I did not feel " hysteria" when I read it ? She was purportedly quoting a local resident.

I have no idea who chose what was used for the headline (front page?).
However, 'horribly deserted' is inaccurate, there are train arrivals 8+ times per hour! Let alone all the windows overlooking the place, the buses and cars passing.
The more we talk about the streets being dangerous the more deserrted they will become and the more people will use their cars to go a few hundred yards etc.

Coffee break over ....

[bensonby]

The problem with such micro statistics (notwithstanding the lack of detail on what the crimes actually are and the circumstances of those offences) is that small numerical changes can grossly effect the proportions. Say, one month one person goes along and scratches half a dozen cars in a street one morning (6 induvidual crimes) it makes it look that the crime rate has more than doubled.

Whilst technically correct it doesn't really show the whole story does it?


I could pass comment on the principal of foot patrol vs mobile (car) patrol, how and why the police act in certain ways, how police numbers and tactics affect crime rates but I think it's rather pointless and I've done it all already.... so I wont unless asked.

All I will say is that the sad thing is if someone really really wants to kill someone, or otherwise commit a crime, then no amount of policing, policy, or other intervention is going to stop them.

[posy]

Sam was a warm friendly young man who was killed in a street he had known all his life while trying to make his way homeward from visiting a friend. That part of Newlands park is isolated it is poorly lit the residences are set back from the pavement. At that bus stop someone can come upon a person unawares from several directions. So mid evening on a Saturday when there are few passers by and little traffic he was easy prey. Street crime of all degrees is on the rise throughout Penge and Sydenham. Is it not time that the community made greater demands on the powers that be to challenge those that commit the crimes and deter the carrying of knives. Better lighting, community policing that approach groups of youths and stop and search them, more cctv at bus stops and stations. Harass those that want to commit crime on our streets. Cameron bangs on about a big society it seems idealistic but as members of society its time we demanded protection aand prevention. Petitions, letters to members of parliament and local authorities are a beginning. We cannot just accept that a minority law breaking underclass will always be robbing and killing on our streets. It is up to all of us to challenge that so Sam and others like him have not died entirely in vain. So everyone do something beyond debating it online please.

[Eagle]

Posy I agree.
Trouble is all Governments speak tough but then act differently.

I recall a statement from our last Government that anypne causght with a knife would face a prison term of 5 years. As far as I am aware they normally get of with a warning.

This was a terrible event and feel so sorry for his family and friends. We all know if the culprit is caught and convicted will probably get max 5 years.

I do not totally blame the Met they are following instructions from above

[Hill Dweller]

Grrrrrrrrr another dupe!

[Hill Dweller]

Cameron bangs on about a big society it seems idealistic but as members of society its time we demanded protection aand prevention.

Petitions, letters to members of parliament and local authorities are a beginning.

Your advice is assuming that the tactics used till now will be helpful now and in the future.

Cameron et al do not see it as their responsibility to provide any more than the most basic of services.
That's the meaning of 'big society'.

Cameron doesn't even understand the way volunteering has worked till now, especially that it has depended on funding from national/local Govt.
His idea of volunteering is what his Mum does ...... being able to afford to sit on the Bench and acquire the status of doing so. It's probably never occurred to him that the bench and its accommodation has to be provided and maintained/lit/heated and that Mum didn't do that....... Govt via local offices did.

The 'idea' of Big Society is things being done by us if they are for us.
We all already have Neighbourhood Watch possibilities and have had for years .......

.

[Eagle]

I think you are being very unkind to our P M. I for instance help weekly at a charity which does not involve any money from HMG or LBC.
The Big Society also involves helping a neighbour , being friendly to all etc.

[Hill Dweller]

The Big Society also involves helping a neighbour , being friendly to all etc.

I don't think any of us needs Fishface to remind us about that, it's called being human.

Big Society is specifically about replacing what some hate ...... 'Big Govt'.