Planning application for Money Shop at 59 Sydenham Road

[dickp]

Reading the Sydenham Society’s objections to the opening of the Money Shop shows just how mad this country’s planning system has become.

The planning rules they cite appear to try to dictate the exact composition of a typical high street.

And, quite frankly, it’s insulting to entrepreneurs, who are prepared to put their OWN money into buying, fitting out and running a business. That’s right, their OWN money.

“Policy ST4 states units undertaking financial and professional services should not be concentrated in a row.”

Really, how awful. Will people starve to death if this critical rule is not upheld?

And what is the result of this great “expertise” in state planning?

“The applicant's own 'health check' of Sydenham Road in April 2010 has revealed that the level of A1 retail units in the Core Shopping Area currently stands at 61%. Planning Policy ST4 does not favour less than 70% A1 in the Core Shopping Area.”

In a nutshet, these rules results in rejected investment applications - all because potential investors can’t fit themselves into some stupid, state-sanction, definition of what an “ideal” high street should comprise.

Quite frankly, I think it’s time for a bit of good old fashioned Darwinism on Britain’s High Street. Let businesses succeed or fail on their own account. And, if that means we end up with a “Clone town” or “converted to residential”, so be it. Because at least what remained would be popular, or sustainable.

[leenewham]

Hmm, sorry DickP I had to disagree (but it's good to debate these things isn't it?).

Isn't the Darwin approach what has happend so far?

It doesn't work.

A clothes shop opens, it shuts, another opens, a chicken shop opens, it shuts, then another shop applies to be a chicken shop, a hair dresser opens, another one shuts, a fishmonger/butcher opens, another butchers shuts, an estate agent opens, another one shuts...same old story.

HIgh streets are failing due to the fact that they have evolved in a higgildy piggldy fashion. Go to a supermarket and they plan the store which make sit easier to shop. They plan right down to a single fixture and the packs that are on shelf.

I know many people slag off East Dulwich, but it's a bust shopping centre with lots of thriving shops and people go there from other areas. It has lots of food shops and grocers in close proximity on North Cross Road, places to eat all grouped together in another part. It has a pinch of cohesion and a sprinkling of planning about it. Whatever you think about the place, it's undeniably popular, varied and a destination.

Debates about 'Middle class this and 'middle class' that are almost irrelevant (what is middle class anyway, Dot mentions it in every post, but I really have no idea what it means any more!). The same ideas, planning and thought can be applied to any high street. All high streets need some sort of form, strategy and planning to help them be thriving centres, whatever the so called 'class' or demographic someone want's to bag and tag human beings in these days.

I fully support the Sydenham Society position in this.

Go on BBW, lots for you there. Consider it a early Christmas Present.

[love-sydenham]

I Totally agree to everything you've said above, Lee, totally!!!

I just can't understand why people would not want their area and of cause - high street to look nicer and more inviting?! With shops that locals (And people form the other areas) would want to visit, to buy from and also to come back to?
I personally, do not see what is the problem with East Dulwich? If people would not like it there, they simply wouldn't go, and wouldn't spend their time after work/weekends, and their money... But can you say the same about our HIGH STREET? At this moment in time, I can't!

So, how exactly shops like that can help our High Street?...

[DigitalFX]

Guy's

Just to confirm that this is Sydenham SE26 we are talking about?

Come on people get a grip...Have a really good look at some of the shops opened up over the last few years when you walk down the road. Opening a Money Shop is not really going to make that much difference is it?

Look at some of the good old shops that we have lost over the years in Sydenham and to be replaced by what I can only describe as..well, I cannot say on here but I am sure you will get my drift. I am all for change and moving forward, but please, again this is Sydenham not Knightsbridge.

Gaz

[dickp]

Question:

Do you think The Glades shopping centre has a rule stating, for example, that: “units undertaking men’s clothing should not be concentrated in a row.”

Does the internet have rules stating that “three internet addresses undertaking financial and professional services should not be concentrated in a row.”

Of course they don’t.

So why should a High Street?

[Tim Lund]

Dickp

There's so much to be said in response to you, and by no means all disagreement.

First, I agree that thinking about Sydenham Road has to take account of market forces, and to appreciate that investors put up money - their own - and not just words. I also agree with Lee's aside that it's good to debate these things - although I generally agree with SydSoc positions on planning matters, it is healthier that what they and any others - individuals or groups - say can be commented on. This leads to a better understanding of what people here really want.

But I think what people want - beyond what can be expressed by market forces - has still some relevance, and it is this - possibly imperfectly - that the planning system should address. This does not make it "state planning", although it does have to be state-sanctioned, in the same way that individual property rights are, I'm pleased to say, state-sanctioned.

[dickp]

To be honest, there's a reason I take the view I do.

I work in a sector (law) which is about to go through some radical reform. Old rules, which a designed to "protect the public" (but, in reality just protect vested interests) are being ripped up, to allow the sector to move into the world of globalisation, the internet, mass retail, and modern marketing.

So I tend to be deeply cynical about rules which protect the "public good" - especially if those rules actually end up with rubbish suppliers selling rubbish products. Hence my cynicism about planning laws. Forgot the grand ideas and lofty principles - what, really are the consequences of those rules? Are we really better off for them?

Rant over.

[leenewham]

I think you will probably find that shopping centres like the Glades try to attract certain types of businesses and have strategies in place for who can or cannot trade there. I'd be suprised if they didn't. Councils all over the country have restrictions on what certain businesses can or can't do in certain buildings to try to encourage a more diverse high street (including Sydenham, hence this thread), yes, they do it in Knightsbridge, Regents Street, Hampstead High Street and other posh places (where you will find the restrictions are tighter), they do the same in Markets like Greenwich, they do it in Supermarkets (which is effectively a high street under one roof). It's just effective management and planning. I don't see the difference between that and a high street.

That's common sense isn't it? Or isn't it? Perhaps I'm wrong. But I haven't heard a convincing argument for not having a strategy, not having some planning other than 'but this is Sydenham or 'I don't want it to be like East Dulwich' (I'm not saying we should be).

It would be interesting to get some of the traders views on this, the ones I have spoken to think along similar lines and I know of a few others (well, one other) who disagrees.

Oh, and "Love Sydenham", the cheques in the post…

[Tim Lund]

Dickp:

The new Coalition government has some plans to tear up the planning system as well - but with the idea of 'localising' it - which they would probably see as givng more power to groups such as the Sydenham Society. I posted about this here earlier - http://www.sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewto ... f=1&t=5395 - with the suggestion that people who care about this should 'engage' with SydSoc and / or organise to have their own views heard.

Frankly, I think these plans are verging on the mad, but we should all be warned - and reading what you have to say here is all to the good, even though in this case I disagree with you.

[Tim Lund]

The change of use of 59 Sydenham Road SE26 from retail (Use Class Al) to Financial and Professional Services (Use Class A2).

I am writing to you in connection with the above proposal. The views which you submitted have been carefully considered, together with the Council's policies and Government advice plus other observations received.

Having taken all the considerations into account, the proposal has now been determined by the Council under powers delegated to officers and I am writing to advise you that the proposal has been REFUSED.

If an appeal is lodged with the Planning Inspectorate against this refusal, I will write to you again and forward a copy of your correspondence on this proposal to the Inspector at the Planning Inspectorate for consideration in the appeal.

Well done everyone, not least our local Civic Societies in the persons of Big Ben and Michael

[scarpetta]

Great news. 59 Sydenham Road prime is a prime spot on our highstreet hopefully we can all benefit from having a decent shop/cafe on this location in the near future. I would personally welcome a relaxing oasis like the Domali in Crystal Palace. Each time I visit CP I get slightly jealous with all the new exciting openings...
I don't think I'm the only Sydder who would welcome such a venue...

[Hill Dweller]

I probably shouldn't be commenting as I don't know the ins and outs but I have the feeling that the Lewisham Credit Union, while charging very very high interest, only lends for very short periods.

Holes like Bright Home do the opposite, pushing the 'advantage' of the long terms for repayment, cajoling people that either don't understand the maths or don't realise that once signed in there's no early completion possible without penalties.

I'll look out for more petitions of this type , along with wishing there was SOMEthing that could be done about Western Union, it just doesn't strike me as a legit set-up.

[chrisj1948]

Tim beat me to it! I had logged in to the forum to report the receipt of the council 'refusal' letter. The Money Shop was nothing that I looked forward to.

Regards
Chris

[Chris Best]

Here is the full text for the reason for refusal

The proposed change of use to Financial and Professional Services (Use Class A2) would result in the loss of retail floorspace within a designated core shopping frontage, detracting from the range of retail services available within the defined district centre, which would have an adverse impact upon the vitality and viability of the area, contrary to Policy STC 4 Major and District Centres - Core Shopping Areas in the adopted Unitary Development Plan (July 2004).

I chaired the local planning meeting some months ago and I think this sums up the views of the objectors.

In terms of Lewisham Plus Credit Union based at 262 Kirkdale SE26 4RS Tel: 020 87784738 - the web site states

that our most expensive interest rate is 26.9% APR

.
So I disagree with Hilldweller -

I probably shouldn't be commenting as I don't know the ins and outs but I have the feeling that the Lewisham Credit Union, while charging very very high interest, only lends for very short periods.

as I don't think 26.9% as a top rate is very very high!

Chris

[Hill Dweller]

Bully for you. Why not just put your own point across without comparing it to another's?


Such an interest rate is offered to people who presumably can't avail themselves of cheaper loans.
Whether that be because they are too poor or have default records I don't know but if the former I would imagine that such a loan for even only one month would severely restict their budget for the payback month and be Catch 22.

Having said that I know that an expensive loan (even a very very expensive one winky) is better than no loan for someone in dire need.

If the latter I wouldn't mind knowing whose money is being risked? Do you? I have wondered about the very name 'Lewisham Union' and hope it is somehow council endorsed / watched over.


Bloomin' 'eck, fumble fingers today!

[Tim Lund]

Hill Dweller

Have a look at the site of the site of the Association of British Credit Unions http://www.abcul.org/home and in particular the Youtube video on it https://www.youtube.com/v/sJs5w-NFScY&hl ... &version=3

26.9% is not in fact a very high rate for unsecured personal loans, and should be compared with rates of over 200% which are shown - and not in small print - on loans from organisations such as The Money Shop. It might be worth you posting in the thread I started recently on Credit Unions vs. High Street banks vs. Money Shops etc. http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5581 where I mention that the implied APR on taking the monthly payment option for my home insurance from a totally respectable insurance company was 35%.

Credit Unions are FSA regulated, as I would assume operations such as the Money Shop are too. I've not checked this, but they are owned by a (US) quoted company, so there's no reason to think what they do is illegal, whatever the views any of us have about their ethics.

[Tim Lund]

I'd also like to express my appreciation here for the efforts put in by Chris Best, and make clear that when I wrote 'our local Civic Societies' I meant principally the Sydenham Society, but also the Forest Hill Society, representatives of whom have contributed to this thread.

[Hill Dweller]

Thanks for addressing your post TL. I must admit to a peculiarity about it, having (possibly too much) experience of forums and (definitely too much) of ganging up (which I'm sure Chris wasn't doing when quoting me in the third person rather than posting to my post).

OMG are three sets of brackets allowable in one sentence?

I was thinking about it all while doing some screwing (re-covering my swivel chair) about how preferable a high interest rate would be vs: no loan at all ..... with a sudden bereavement and associated expenses for example.

I should apprise myself more about exactly what 'Lewisham Union' means, who is it funded by, do they feed the new-scam empires (Equifax and their like) and how different to banks are they.


Addition: Having said all that I'm very glad that Money Shop' isn't on, hope that a Bright Home never will be and wish that Western Union wasn't.

[love-sydenham]

Being one of the objectors regarding the change of use (of this retail space) on our high street, I must say I am very glad to receive a notification letter with the REFUSAL of this change!

I understand, that not all of us/you can be happy with this decision, but it is our street, and I am sure/hope, that we have something better in mind to use this space for...

With regards,

love-sydenham

[Tim Lund]

This in today's Guardian is worth reading in this context

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2011/fe ... NTCMP=SRCH

If anyone thinks they may need unsecured personal borrowing, and they don't have friends and family to help, I would recommend joining Lewisham Plus Credit Union