no i don't work for the daily mail what a stupid thing to say.
i am more interested in to where this so called government commissioned report came from and why it just happend to be broadcast at just the right time without any mention of the fight to save the library service.
unless i am msitaken lewisham was named in that news report and that would inc sydenham so yes direcly or indirecly that report does cover sydenham library and thats why i posted it here.
SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
I went to the Grove Park consultation tonight with the specific purpose of asking Aileen Buckton why she didn’t see fit to mention to Future Libraries Programme and Lewisham’s inclusion in its pilot, which was announced by Culture minister Ed Vaizey on the same day as our consultation. I’ll report her reply below but I thought I would share my experience with you first.
Considering the weather, the meeting was well attended by a cross section of the local community; around 100 souls had braved the storm. The venue was a sports hall in the T&A centre on Baring Road, which had awful acoustics which meant it was very hard to hear questions from the floor.
The top table comprised of the same officials as we were blessed with last week; Steve Gough Director of Programme Management & Property, Aileen Buckton Executive Director Community Services, Hilary Renwick Head of Cultural Services and Antonio Rizzo, Director of Library services. Steve Gough did the intros and chaired and Aileen Buckton said much the same as she did at the Grove Centre.
Councillors present were Suzannah Clarke (LAB), Christine Allison (CON) and David Britton (CON). (Readers may remember what we at Sydenham Community Radio called the “Battle of Grove Park”, in the May election, where they required two recounts to separate to separate Britton form Labour Candidate Hillary Moore by just two votes). And Chris Best in her cabinet capacity.
Cllr Clarke said that she opposed to the closure and aligned herself with other Labour councillors like Hall of Bellingham and Curran of Sydenham who are campaigning to scrap the Assemblies budget. She called them “pet projects”, which was probably a dig at the Mayor and his cabinet.
Cllr Allison was staunchly opposed to the closure and highlighted what a well used resource it was for children and mums. She wanted it to remain a council run operation but to look at alternative uses and ways of involving local business trying to earn revenue out of the site. She displayed good knowledge of the site and seemed to have given its use lot of thought.
Cllr Britton was brief and to the point; He stood up and addressed the meeting: “We are here to listen”. And that was it!
Numerous questions followed but it was very hard to hear them. One person referred to “vanity projects” and then cited Black History Month, which he said cost £1,000. A teacher said that her school and three others used it and that alternatives (Downham) were unworkable. She added that the PTAs of the three schools were going to oppose as soon as the new term started. Another teacher stood up and said it he used the library to do all his lesson planning etc and was merely concerned as a heavy user. Someone wondered if the soon to be developed Ringway Centre could find a bit of space but officer Buckton said no, as it would cost money.
Soon someone reached the inevitable conclusion that the reason why Grove Park Library was on the “recommended for closure” list was because, like Sydenham, the Council had neglected to spend any money it for the last few years, whereas it had done elsewhere. I have to say I empathised with the questioner as he appeared to feel the same way I did when the penny dropped last Thursday; sick! Unlike me, the questioner got a hearty round of applause.
It was interesting that when someone who had looked at the numbers on the hand out; the same one we got, and noted that there was a correlation between the cost per visit and how long the library was open for and suggested that therefore to make it more efficient it should open longer, officer Buckton replied, as she did in Sydenham, that it was down to the figures being skewed by self service terminals in the libraries they had invested in. I remember last week she was convincingly challenged on this point by a member of Sydenham Library staff, but nobody challenged her on this occasion.
A chap called Bill Bishop stood up and called for all Lewisham Library funding to be “ring fenced”. Some people clapped and cheered but the people near me just asked “what did he say?”
Then I got to ask my question, which was along the lines of why no mention had been made of the Future Libraries Programme at either our or Grove Park’s consultations, seeing as they had been working on it for months and had applied for inclusion in the pilot. I observed that it appeared we were being bounced into a “Big Society” solution of a problem caused by the council’s neglect. Officer Buckton replied that South East Libraries Performance Improvement Group had been buying books in bulk orders with other Boroughs for years and all it meant was that they were sharing some back office functions. When pressed on Lewisham’s inclusion in a DCMS “Big Society” press release, she said that other Boroughs may be doing something along those lines and Lewisham has had some funding, but it is only about £10k and isn’t going to make a lot of difference. If there is a “Big Society” solution to the libraries issue, it appears we’re not part of it.
I thanked the people of Grove Park for their time and left before further questions.
Considering the weather, the meeting was well attended by a cross section of the local community; around 100 souls had braved the storm. The venue was a sports hall in the T&A centre on Baring Road, which had awful acoustics which meant it was very hard to hear questions from the floor.
The top table comprised of the same officials as we were blessed with last week; Steve Gough Director of Programme Management & Property, Aileen Buckton Executive Director Community Services, Hilary Renwick Head of Cultural Services and Antonio Rizzo, Director of Library services. Steve Gough did the intros and chaired and Aileen Buckton said much the same as she did at the Grove Centre.
Councillors present were Suzannah Clarke (LAB), Christine Allison (CON) and David Britton (CON). (Readers may remember what we at Sydenham Community Radio called the “Battle of Grove Park”, in the May election, where they required two recounts to separate to separate Britton form Labour Candidate Hillary Moore by just two votes). And Chris Best in her cabinet capacity.
Cllr Clarke said that she opposed to the closure and aligned herself with other Labour councillors like Hall of Bellingham and Curran of Sydenham who are campaigning to scrap the Assemblies budget. She called them “pet projects”, which was probably a dig at the Mayor and his cabinet.
Cllr Allison was staunchly opposed to the closure and highlighted what a well used resource it was for children and mums. She wanted it to remain a council run operation but to look at alternative uses and ways of involving local business trying to earn revenue out of the site. She displayed good knowledge of the site and seemed to have given its use lot of thought.
Cllr Britton was brief and to the point; He stood up and addressed the meeting: “We are here to listen”. And that was it!
Numerous questions followed but it was very hard to hear them. One person referred to “vanity projects” and then cited Black History Month, which he said cost £1,000. A teacher said that her school and three others used it and that alternatives (Downham) were unworkable. She added that the PTAs of the three schools were going to oppose as soon as the new term started. Another teacher stood up and said it he used the library to do all his lesson planning etc and was merely concerned as a heavy user. Someone wondered if the soon to be developed Ringway Centre could find a bit of space but officer Buckton said no, as it would cost money.
Soon someone reached the inevitable conclusion that the reason why Grove Park Library was on the “recommended for closure” list was because, like Sydenham, the Council had neglected to spend any money it for the last few years, whereas it had done elsewhere. I have to say I empathised with the questioner as he appeared to feel the same way I did when the penny dropped last Thursday; sick! Unlike me, the questioner got a hearty round of applause.
It was interesting that when someone who had looked at the numbers on the hand out; the same one we got, and noted that there was a correlation between the cost per visit and how long the library was open for and suggested that therefore to make it more efficient it should open longer, officer Buckton replied, as she did in Sydenham, that it was down to the figures being skewed by self service terminals in the libraries they had invested in. I remember last week she was convincingly challenged on this point by a member of Sydenham Library staff, but nobody challenged her on this occasion.
A chap called Bill Bishop stood up and called for all Lewisham Library funding to be “ring fenced”. Some people clapped and cheered but the people near me just asked “what did he say?”
Then I got to ask my question, which was along the lines of why no mention had been made of the Future Libraries Programme at either our or Grove Park’s consultations, seeing as they had been working on it for months and had applied for inclusion in the pilot. I observed that it appeared we were being bounced into a “Big Society” solution of a problem caused by the council’s neglect. Officer Buckton replied that South East Libraries Performance Improvement Group had been buying books in bulk orders with other Boroughs for years and all it meant was that they were sharing some back office functions. When pressed on Lewisham’s inclusion in a DCMS “Big Society” press release, she said that other Boroughs may be doing something along those lines and Lewisham has had some funding, but it is only about £10k and isn’t going to make a lot of difference. If there is a “Big Society” solution to the libraries issue, it appears we’re not part of it.
I thanked the people of Grove Park for their time and left before further questions.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Thanks for that Simon.
On a point of detail, I think it was someone from the Manor House Library Users' Group who challenged Aileen Buckton on those usage figures. For more from them, and Lewisham Libraries in general, see http://www.librarylondon.org/localgroup ... wisham.htm
For example, this
On a point of detail, I think it was someone from the Manor House Library Users' Group who challenged Aileen Buckton on those usage figures. For more from them, and Lewisham Libraries in general, see http://www.librarylondon.org/localgroup ... wisham.htm
For example, this
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Just a reminder of the link to the petition to Save Sydenham Library:
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/savesydenhamlibrary/
http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/savesydenhamlibrary/
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Hi everyone,
I missed the meeting through stupidity - the date wasn't printed very large, it just said THURSDAY, and I thought it was this week, not last week.
Is there going to be an ongoing campaign? Is another meeting planned?
There is a broader anti-cuts committee in Lewisham, which is quite small and has just got going, but if there is a campaign we should link up with that.
Someone has made the point that the council CEO is paid £200,000 and the mayor £78,000. I haven't lived in Lewisham long, but if it's anything like Lambeth I'm sure there are a lot of things like that - overpaid managers, consultants etc, paid huge sums to cut jobs and make services worse. It's the same at the national level - we're told there have to be cuts but last year just the thousands richest people in the country, the Sunday Times 'Rich List', increased their wealth by £77 billion. The money is there; the recession is just an excuse to slash services which the Tories and Lib Dems don't want to pay for.
If Labour councillors/councils were serious about representing working-class people, they would just say: No, we don't make cuts. Instead Lewisham is cutting enthusiastically.
So, as I said, I hope there will be an ongoing campaign. Any information much appreciated.
I missed the meeting through stupidity - the date wasn't printed very large, it just said THURSDAY, and I thought it was this week, not last week.
Is there going to be an ongoing campaign? Is another meeting planned?
There is a broader anti-cuts committee in Lewisham, which is quite small and has just got going, but if there is a campaign we should link up with that.
Someone has made the point that the council CEO is paid £200,000 and the mayor £78,000. I haven't lived in Lewisham long, but if it's anything like Lambeth I'm sure there are a lot of things like that - overpaid managers, consultants etc, paid huge sums to cut jobs and make services worse. It's the same at the national level - we're told there have to be cuts but last year just the thousands richest people in the country, the Sunday Times 'Rich List', increased their wealth by £77 billion. The money is there; the recession is just an excuse to slash services which the Tories and Lib Dems don't want to pay for.
If Labour councillors/councils were serious about representing working-class people, they would just say: No, we don't make cuts. Instead Lewisham is cutting enthusiastically.
So, as I said, I hope there will be an ongoing campaign. Any information much appreciated.
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
'Sacha' says:
I don't think that would work. If a council refused to make cuts, the Government would probably in effect sack them - send in commisioners, or something. Even if they didn't go that far, they would just reduce their Exchequer grants to the council on the assumption that the cuts had been made, which would mean the council would have to cut services anyway. (They wouldn't be allowed to put up council tax to make up the shortfall, and I should think the savings to be made on things like cutting top officials' pay would be pretty insignificant.) That would produce chaos. I'd rather have planned cuts than unplanned ones.If Labour councillors/councils were serious about representing working-class people, they would just say: No, we don't make cuts
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Sacha:
I think Robin is right on this one. In any campaign, it's always worth recognising the actual realities of power, and in the case of overall cuts to Council spending, the power is overwhelmingly with central government, and behind them the 'bond market vigilantes'. Here's a quote from Bill Clinton's former campaign manager:
No - we must accept that Lewisham spending will be cut; the fact that I disagree with Robin over whether it is incumbent on us to say precisely where cuts should happen is only because I accept the responsibility for deciding this as belonging to the Mayor and CEO - whose salaries I earlier quoted.
It would be nice if the spending could be cut without cutting the actual services provided. I suspect that in the long run it could, but not quickly. It depends on whether you think the Council could be more efficient. A recent report into a sample of Councils suggests that they could be http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/news/102318 ... use-staff/.
I don't necessarily object to senior Council staff being well paid - but I'd like to see a CEO justify his / her salary by also improving the Council's efficiency. It is not enough for someone to get paid a large amount because some remuneration committee advised by pay consultants say that's what the going rate is for someone in charge of an organisation with a given level of spending.
In the meantime, I think there are good principled arguments why libraries should be among the last services to be cut, which others, and I I'd like to think myself, have made earlier in this thread.
I think Robin is right on this one. In any campaign, it's always worth recognising the actual realities of power, and in the case of overall cuts to Council spending, the power is overwhelmingly with central government, and behind them the 'bond market vigilantes'. Here's a quote from Bill Clinton's former campaign manager:
Look also at what has happened in Greece, and is happening again in Ireland as a ratings agency downgrades its credit.“I used to think if there was reincarnation, I wanted to come back as the president or the pope or a .400 baseball hitter. But now I want to come back as the bond market. You can intimidate everybody.”
No - we must accept that Lewisham spending will be cut; the fact that I disagree with Robin over whether it is incumbent on us to say precisely where cuts should happen is only because I accept the responsibility for deciding this as belonging to the Mayor and CEO - whose salaries I earlier quoted.
It would be nice if the spending could be cut without cutting the actual services provided. I suspect that in the long run it could, but not quickly. It depends on whether you think the Council could be more efficient. A recent report into a sample of Councils suggests that they could be http://www.hrmagazine.co.uk/news/102318 ... use-staff/.
I don't necessarily object to senior Council staff being well paid - but I'd like to see a CEO justify his / her salary by also improving the Council's efficiency. It is not enough for someone to get paid a large amount because some remuneration committee advised by pay consultants say that's what the going rate is for someone in charge of an organisation with a given level of spending.
In the meantime, I think there are good principled arguments why libraries should be among the last services to be cut, which others, and I I'd like to think myself, have made earlier in this thread.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
I have to disagree. There HAVE been Labour councils in the past that defied dictats from Tory governments to make cuts - Poplar in the 1920s and Clay Cross in the 70s. Similar attempts were made in the 80s, though they didn't go as far. Poplar and Clay Cross both won - despite councillors being jailed, in the case of Poplar, and commissioners being sent in in the case of Clay Cross, the Labour councillors resisted AND WON. It's not that likely given the kind of crappy Blairite Labour councillors we have now. But we should argue for it.
You say the bond markets decide everything. But that's because in most cases workers and communities are not organised. Let's get organised and form a counter-pressure to the markets! Let's fight back.
Most importantly: let's form a real campaign to stop Sydenham Library being closed. Who on here is up for having a campaign?
You say the bond markets decide everything. But that's because in most cases workers and communities are not organised. Let's get organised and form a counter-pressure to the markets! Let's fight back.
Most importantly: let's form a real campaign to stop Sydenham Library being closed. Who on here is up for having a campaign?
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Sacha:
When you write:
WHEN Sydenham Library is saved, various people will claim the victory, foremost, I would expect, our Labour councillors and Mayor. I will not begrudge them - at the crucial point, it will be their decision that will have saved it.
When you write:
are you implying that the actual campaign http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic.php?t=5200 isn't real? Or is your knowledge of Labour history rather greater than of Sydenham actuality? Had you joined us on Saturday morning, I suspect you would have met those who could have helped you on both. Meanwhile, I await enlightenment on how the personal bankruptcy of the Clay Cross Labour councillors counted as victory for anyone.let's form a real campaign to stop Sydenham Library being closed. Who on here is up for having a campaign?
WHEN Sydenham Library is saved, various people will claim the victory, foremost, I would expect, our Labour councillors and Mayor. I will not begrudge them - at the crucial point, it will be their decision that will have saved it.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
25% saved from this
http://www.rcka.co.uk/index2.php?page=portfolio&item=51
would easily meet the £250,000 needed for Sydenham Library.
http://www.rcka.co.uk/index2.php?page=portfolio&item=51
would easily meet the £250,000 needed for Sydenham Library.
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The Commander
- Posts: 50
- Joined: 6 Jul 2010 16:50
- Location: Crystal Palace
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Unfortunately I have not been able to follow the whole debate about cuts in services but I would have thought that Sydenham library needs a long term guaranteed revenue stream not a capital injection. These sort of trade offs just do not work Bram as from my experience of working in local government they come from very different pots of money.
But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
But please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Lewisham have a survey about their services that is worth filling out: http://consult.lewisham.gov.uk/portal/c ... am_our_say
It includes a section about the library service.
It includes a section about the library service.
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louisecbrooks
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 9 Sep 2010 09:16
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Please support the campaign by joining our group on facebook: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=1 ... 377&ref=mf
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
I've written a few words here: http://www.sydenham.org.uk/news_save_sy ... brary.html
The links to all the Save Sydenham Library activities have been brought together:
The Blog: http://sydlib.com/blog
The Petition: http://sydlib.com/petition
Facebook Group: http://sydlib.com/facebook
Twitter Followers: http://sydlib.com/twitter
An index of these and more will appear at http://sydlib.com shortly. Remember SYDLIB. We need to keep it!
Admin
The links to all the Save Sydenham Library activities have been brought together:
The Blog: http://sydlib.com/blog
The Petition: http://sydlib.com/petition
Facebook Group: http://sydlib.com/facebook
Twitter Followers: http://sydlib.com/twitter
An index of these and more will appear at http://sydlib.com shortly. Remember SYDLIB. We need to keep it!
Admin
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
I have lived off the high street for 12 years and never used this library. I used Forest Hill library once 10 years ago. I have used Beckenham library twice last year but that is it. I recently signed a save Sydenham Library petition but only because it seemed the right thing to do. I actually don't care if it closes and wonder how many people supporting it use it or are just against the closing of it because it seems wrong to close it. I have a child at pre school and am happy buying books to read from ebay or charity shops. Please don't feel this is a knock but just interested to know who uses it and what for?
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Good question.
I've used it to get books, it helped us design our garden and do some DIY and was reference for some design projects.
When we were without internet for a while last year it helped my wife find employment, check her emails and contact her parents in El Salvador with it's free internet access (only 64% of the UK has internet at home).
I've had meetings in there with our local residents association and Friends of Home Park.
The library staff have been helpful to Friends of Home Park.
I've used it to get books, it helped us design our garden and do some DIY and was reference for some design projects.
When we were without internet for a while last year it helped my wife find employment, check her emails and contact her parents in El Salvador with it's free internet access (only 64% of the UK has internet at home).
I've had meetings in there with our local residents association and Friends of Home Park.
The library staff have been helpful to Friends of Home Park.
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Pat Trembath
- Posts: 613
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 10:54
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
When The The's child goes on to primary school there wont be a library there for the four local schools to visit weekly as they do now. Story time wont be available for the young children at the library, nor the homework clubs, nor the teenage reading club, nor the other services provided by the library.
It's easy to buy books for young children from charity shops and on ebay, but one day soon The The's child may want to go and chose its own books.
I grew up going to the local library and developed a love of books, and a love of the English language because of the sheer volume and variety of books available. My children went to the Library every Friday on the way home from school and they, too, have never lost their enjoyment of reading. Now the next generation in my family have just started becoming regular library users.
I will campaign along with many others locally for the retention of this great resource to Lower Sydenham. We will be outside Sydenham Library tomorrow morning (Saturday) at 10.45 am for a photocall for the Save Sydenham Library campaign before collecting signatures against the threatened closure in Sydenham Road and at Bell Green.
It's easy to buy books for young children from charity shops and on ebay, but one day soon The The's child may want to go and chose its own books.
I grew up going to the local library and developed a love of books, and a love of the English language because of the sheer volume and variety of books available. My children went to the Library every Friday on the way home from school and they, too, have never lost their enjoyment of reading. Now the next generation in my family have just started becoming regular library users.
I will campaign along with many others locally for the retention of this great resource to Lower Sydenham. We will be outside Sydenham Library tomorrow morning (Saturday) at 10.45 am for a photocall for the Save Sydenham Library campaign before collecting signatures against the threatened closure in Sydenham Road and at Bell Green.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Two succinct replies that have certainly made me think about my previous comment and pleased I did sign the petition.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
I do like the BBC especially Radio4 and BBC4 but you are frequently reminded that they have a very left wing bias. Partly because they work for a state organisation with of course gold plated pensions.
Re: SAVE SYDENHAM LIBRARY
Does anyone understand why this is here? Has the Eagle taken leave of his senses?I do like the BBC especially Radio4 and BBC4 but you are frequently reminded that they have a very left wing bias. Partly because they work for a state organisation with of course gold plated pensions.