thank you for that tim some very interesting reading.
It would seem from your words that lewisham have already made their mind up to close this library no matter what the publlic may say.
agreed the library does need work, but then if lewisham had put the money in to the maintenance they should of the library as so many of their buildings would not be in such a poor state of repair.
I can't see how a building that was built to serve the public as a library can be used for alternative community use the simple fact is once lewisham get the doors of that library closed it will never be used for anything other then some inverstor buying the building and using the space for yet more unwanted flats
the Naborhood Centre which as far as i know is a much needed and well used disbaled day center so i can not see how that building can be used by lewisham to provide any of the services provided by the library during the care service hours.
that simply does not make sense, maybe ok for after hours services that the library provides to some people but for school's and the public it won't work.
I for one will not use foresthill or downham library , if i wanted to sit in a internet cafe full of screaming kids i would,
the mayor should look in to opening sydenham library more at the moment its only open 4 days a week and closed for lunch which is a bit pointless.
Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
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RedRevolver
- Posts: 12
- Joined: 14 Jan 2008 19:41
- Location: Lower Sydenham
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
But again, surely the Carnegie UK Trust could be approached to offer to front some, or even all, of the repair costs?
Has this even happened? I'm sorry if I've missed something but to my knowledge it hasn't.
Regardless of repairs necessary, nobody in their right mind could think the Naborhood centre would ever be an appropriate replacement library. It's in the wrong location, and it's too small.
I think the Library service would, generally, be served better if the libraries weren't shut down, but some of those beings higher-up were asked to resign in order to create a more beneficial and effective service.
Has this even happened? I'm sorry if I've missed something but to my knowledge it hasn't.
Regardless of repairs necessary, nobody in their right mind could think the Naborhood centre would ever be an appropriate replacement library. It's in the wrong location, and it's too small.
I think the Library service would, generally, be served better if the libraries weren't shut down, but some of those beings higher-up were asked to resign in order to create a more beneficial and effective service.
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
Hi RedRevolver:
A quick look at the Carnegie UK Trust reveals this:
A quick look at the Carnegie UK Trust reveals this:
A note about grants
Please note that the Carnegie UK Trust is no longer a grant giving body and we are unable to accept unsolicited grant proposals.
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
'Tadpole' said:
Although I doubt whether cutting top officials' salaries would save very much, I wonder whether there might not be a case nevertheless for doing it on grounds of social justice and solidarity with the poorer people whom the service cuts will affect disproportionately. One response to this sort of proposal is always that, in an open market situation, it will mean that Lewisham (or the bank or the NHS Trust or the BBC or the university or the country, you name it) will not be able to attract the top talent it needs to run itself efficiently. There's no easy response to that that I know of. But didn't I read somewhere that the Government were in any case proposing to introduce some sort of controls on local authority etc top salaries?
This has been more recently discussed on one of the threads specifically devoted to the proposal to close Sydenham library - http://sydenham.org.uk/forum/viewtopic. ... 3&start=20It's time the Mayor 'got real', he should join the others in this country that have taken a pay cut to keep their jobs.
That would save a few jobs going at Sydenham library
Although I doubt whether cutting top officials' salaries would save very much, I wonder whether there might not be a case nevertheless for doing it on grounds of social justice and solidarity with the poorer people whom the service cuts will affect disproportionately. One response to this sort of proposal is always that, in an open market situation, it will mean that Lewisham (or the bank or the NHS Trust or the BBC or the university or the country, you name it) will not be able to attract the top talent it needs to run itself efficiently. There's no easy response to that that I know of. But didn't I read somewhere that the Government were in any case proposing to introduce some sort of controls on local authority etc top salaries?
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
Why stop at just cutting the top officials salaries? If all public servants took a cut, progressive and with the lowest paid taking only a small token cut, then it would be easier to avoid cutting services such as our local libraries.
It would also, in my opinion, bring respect from other citizens to those who work for this country's publicly funded organisations - whether these organisations be local government, central government, health service and other agencies. This would have a knock on effect - less abuse, more patience, more understanding of those working with increasingly limited resources. This in turn would make everyone's life more pleasant etc...
Maybe I'm in dreamland here - but this action would make each and everyone involved feel some personal responsibility and make them stand out as helping address the overall problem of too much 'public' debt. (Public debt is not the only problem).
Didn't this happen in Eire a couple of years ago?
"Among the most contentious of the hard-hitting measures is a drop in the pay of public sector workers, with salaries cut from 5 per cent for those on 30,000 euro (£27,000) or less up to 8 per cent for those earning up to 125,000 euro (£114,000). Top-earning public and civil servants will take a salary cut between 8 per cent and up to 15 per cent for those on more the 200,000 euro (£182,00), with the Taoiseach taking a 20 per cent cut."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0xuwfJjBC
It would also, in my opinion, bring respect from other citizens to those who work for this country's publicly funded organisations - whether these organisations be local government, central government, health service and other agencies. This would have a knock on effect - less abuse, more patience, more understanding of those working with increasingly limited resources. This in turn would make everyone's life more pleasant etc...
Maybe I'm in dreamland here - but this action would make each and everyone involved feel some personal responsibility and make them stand out as helping address the overall problem of too much 'public' debt. (Public debt is not the only problem).
Didn't this happen in Eire a couple of years ago?
"Among the most contentious of the hard-hitting measures is a drop in the pay of public sector workers, with salaries cut from 5 per cent for those on 30,000 euro (£27,000) or less up to 8 per cent for those earning up to 125,000 euro (£114,000). Top-earning public and civil servants will take a salary cut between 8 per cent and up to 15 per cent for those on more the 200,000 euro (£182,00), with the Taoiseach taking a 20 per cent cut."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z0xuwfJjBC
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
I doubt whether Lewisham could unilaterally cut the pay of employees on nationally agreed (as I assume they still are) payscales. In any case, it would be particularly politically difficult here, as I believe a higher proportion of the working population in Lewisham are employed in the public sector than in most (all?) London boroughs.
On the wider issue, i can understand that private sector people who have had their pay cut or frozen, or have lost their jobs, will feel aggrieved at what they perceive as the privileged (for the moment?) position of the public sector. And as 'Sydenham' points out (is she the tutelary deity of SE26, as 'Britannia' is of Britain?
), the Irish seem to have got away with cutting public servants' pay. But I doubt whether it would be politically feasible here unless everyone were confident that the misery was being fairly shared between the high and low paid in all sectors.
On a personal note, this is the first time EVER I have used what i believe is called an 'emoticon' (how do you pronounce it: e-MOTE- ick-on or e-mote- EYE-kon?) in any online communication. Perhaps someone could let me know if I've done it wrong or chosen an inappropriate icon
On the wider issue, i can understand that private sector people who have had their pay cut or frozen, or have lost their jobs, will feel aggrieved at what they perceive as the privileged (for the moment?) position of the public sector. And as 'Sydenham' points out (is she the tutelary deity of SE26, as 'Britannia' is of Britain?
), the Irish seem to have got away with cutting public servants' pay. But I doubt whether it would be politically feasible here unless everyone were confident that the misery was being fairly shared between the high and low paid in all sectors.On a personal note, this is the first time EVER I have used what i believe is called an 'emoticon' (how do you pronounce it: e-MOTE- ick-on or e-mote- EYE-kon?) in any online communication. Perhaps someone could let me know if I've done it wrong or chosen an inappropriate icon
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
There is actually no reason why individual Councils cannot negotiate pay freezes/cuts with their employees. If you look at vaious employeres you will see that their salary bans vary widly from one to another.
But the reality is that even big cuts would not save all the money that was being imposed on Lewisham. Cuts will be imposed across the public sector but Councils are taking a particularly heavy blow here. I fear that is political and it is ironic when we are supposed to be looking at how to boost localism.
Bottom line is yes libraries are great, and so are swimming pools and park attendants and keeping the roads repaired (though that wasn't happening anyway) ot clean. But we need to think about what the key services are like childrens social services, caring for old people in thie homes or providing them with a safe reguge when they canot cope at home, as well as emptying the bins and keeping street lights working.
I am sorry but Lewisham like many other Councils will be making some very stark choices. So if we are serious about delivery library or any other non statutary services we will need to think about ways to do them outside the public sector, throughcharitable trusts, volunteers or partnerships. Perhaps with the Council providing basic infrastructure, but labour through vounteers keeping a service open for fewer hours, perhaps from alternative locations.
Welcome to the Big Society!
But the reality is that even big cuts would not save all the money that was being imposed on Lewisham. Cuts will be imposed across the public sector but Councils are taking a particularly heavy blow here. I fear that is political and it is ironic when we are supposed to be looking at how to boost localism.
Bottom line is yes libraries are great, and so are swimming pools and park attendants and keeping the roads repaired (though that wasn't happening anyway) ot clean. But we need to think about what the key services are like childrens social services, caring for old people in thie homes or providing them with a safe reguge when they canot cope at home, as well as emptying the bins and keeping street lights working.
I am sorry but Lewisham like many other Councils will be making some very stark choices. So if we are serious about delivery library or any other non statutary services we will need to think about ways to do them outside the public sector, throughcharitable trusts, volunteers or partnerships. Perhaps with the Council providing basic infrastructure, but labour through vounteers keeping a service open for fewer hours, perhaps from alternative locations.
Welcome to the Big Society!
Re: Lewisham Council - £60m of spending cuts!
Simono
Thanks for that. I'm curious when you refer to non statutory services because at an early meeting about the closure of the library, Chris Best explained that the difference in percentage cuts across services might be down to some being statutory, some not. However, when I researched why one service - our Town Centre Managers - looked to being cut entirely, it seemed that this was because something called the Local Authority Business Growth Initiative was being cut by central government. Also, when I asked on the new Lewisham forum 'Our Lewisham, Our Say' about setting priorities, I got the response
Meanwhile, it may be worth looking at the Spending Map Lewisham produced - http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres ... ingMap.pdf. The spend which seems most out of control here is housing benefit, taking well over 20%. I suspect this is both a symptom and part cause of our inflated housing market - and that to some extent it is private sector landlords of low income tenants who are able to squeeze money out of the Council tax payer - and now out of all those good things you mention - libraries, swimming pools, etc.
Correction: I just checked with someone who understands this better than me, and the HB spend is basically the Council administering money coming from central government - so no impact on these other services. So maybe now I could try asking for a more meaningful spending map
Thanks for that. I'm curious when you refer to non statutory services because at an early meeting about the closure of the library, Chris Best explained that the difference in percentage cuts across services might be down to some being statutory, some not. However, when I researched why one service - our Town Centre Managers - looked to being cut entirely, it seemed that this was because something called the Local Authority Business Growth Initiative was being cut by central government. Also, when I asked on the new Lewisham forum 'Our Lewisham, Our Say' about setting priorities, I got the response
Maybe you could advise me how to ask a more penetrating follow-up questions here!There is a statutory requirement or duty for the Council to provide, in some form, all of the services it currently provides to the public.
There may however be discretion to vary the level of service that is provided. There may also be discretion over the types of services that are provided, who they are provided for, and how much the Council can charge for those services.
All of these factors vary according to the service in question
Meanwhile, it may be worth looking at the Spending Map Lewisham produced - http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres ... ingMap.pdf. The spend which seems most out of control here is housing benefit, taking well over 20%. I suspect this is both a symptom and part cause of our inflated housing market - and that to some extent it is private sector landlords of low income tenants who are able to squeeze money out of the Council tax payer - and now out of all those good things you mention - libraries, swimming pools, etc.
Correction: I just checked with someone who understands this better than me, and the HB spend is basically the Council administering money coming from central government - so no impact on these other services. So maybe now I could try asking for a more meaningful spending map