More short trains at Sydenham station

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 26 Sep 2006 09:11

A few months ago, Len Duvall announced on this forum that he had intervened to end short trains on the London Bridge to Victoria loop. Good old Len, we all thought, that’s the end of short trains at Sydenham for ever.

But think again. At the inaugural meeting of the Forest Hill Society yesterday evening, Nigel de Souza, the communications manager of the East London Line revealed that every single ELL train will be a short train of only four carriages. Longer trains can’t be accommodated on the line since many of the underground stations further up the line are too short.

Mr de Souza, also proudly revealed an artist’s mock-up showing the inside of the new trains. You can see this by visiting the TFL website, under ELL. To save you the bother, what they have done is to remove all the seats and placed them tube-style in two rows with their backs to the windows facing one another. In a wide-bodied train this leaves a huge void down the middle. Mr de Souza told us this was to accommodate wheelchairs. (He clearly hadn’t visited FH station where anyone in a wheelchair foolish enough to alight on platform 2 would need the help of the local fire brigade just to get off the platform). It is clear that this extra space is designed to accommodate many extra standing passengers.

It’s all too easy to imagine rush hour once the new line arrives with everyone trying to force their way onto short trains and having to stand shoulder-to-shoulder all the way to their destination.

Welcome to a new type of travel - cattletruck class. And with the number of direct trains to London Bridge due to be reduced, it's going to be the norm at Sydenham station come 2010.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 26 Sep 2006 09:20

It could be worse, it could actually be the dirty, hot, crime-ridden, overcrowded and polluted underground.

I've made my views on HOP and Brockley quite clear but I do feel slightly sorry for them in that they can't get on the trains as things currently stand (no pun intended) and clearly, they don't have an earthly of getting on the new ELL trains, should they see it as a viable alternative.

The reduction in trains to L.Bridge does very much concern me. Do you have more information regarding that please Nasaroc?

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 26 Sep 2006 09:42

Greg - I'm sorry to say that a reduction in the number of London Bridge trains is highly likely once the ELL line arrives. We know from a reply to the Lewisham Transport Liaison Group in March from Helen Robinson of ELL that the intention is to cut up to one third of services to and from London Bridge outside the morning rush hour and from Southern Rail that closing the the loop from London Bridge to Victoria is "under consideration" (rail-speak for "we'd like to do this if we can get away with it".)

I believe that rush hour trains to London Bridge are also under threat. Studies by TFL engineers indicate that, due to signalling limitations, only a maximum of 12 trains can safely and practically be sent down the line past Sydenham per hour. ELL want to run 8 trains per hour and there are currently six rush hour trains to London Bridge - that makes a total of 14 trains per hour. This is too many. Cuts will have to be made and London Bridge trains are the likely victim.

Greg - I think you'll be travelling cattletruck class whether you like it or not mate!

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 26 Sep 2006 10:08

There are more than six rush-hour trains to L. Bridge, unless the 8.45 is a ghost train and I just imagine very, very occasionally travelling on it?

You're right though nasaroc, either cuts are inevitable or pressure will come to bear and the ELL will have to have less 'slots'. Common sense will surely prevail in that the pressure is currently on the L.Bridge line? Or is it just wishful thinking on my part?

As for the cattle class, my journey during rush hour to work AND home is on the fast trains and I always get a seat and travel in air-con cool - I make sure of it. Sydenham is the last station that we can safely say that, indeed one of the last stations (along with FH) that people can actually get on.

That may, of course, change in light of 2010 but I can't see how cancelling the Victoria loop will have that great an effect for residents of Sydenham, the impact will be felt most keenly at CP and further 'up' the line? The fact that it's the Dorking, Caterham trains et al that I board (the non-stoppers as I call them) will presumably be Ok. I don't forsee me ever really travelling on the ELL which whilst not the right attitude to adopt, is how I and the people I have spoken with about this feel. Who's to say the ELL won't take some of the slack from the L.Bridge line?

I'm not disagreeing with you as you're clearly much better informed. At the same time I don't see it as hoping against hope that my journey won't get worse. Agreed it might not get any better.

I'm sorry it's an "I'm alright Jack" attitude but that's how it has to be.

michael · Post by **michael** » 26 Sep 2006 12:59

Some information mentioned by Councillor John Paschoud at last night's Forest Hill Society meeting and passed on to me via email:

The Lewisham Council Sustainable Development Select Committee, chaired by Cllr Darren Johnson, is currently undertaking an investigation into planned rail services relevant to the Borough, with a particular focus on the impacts of the East London Line Extension (the 'Overground').

In line with concerns expressed by several people at the inaugural Forest Hill Society AGM, the investigation is concerned to find out, and influence if possible, the OVERALL capacity and frequency of rail services, to ALL destinations, that will be available to residents for commuting and other travel. Therefore we're inviting witnesses from TfL *and* Network Rail and the rail operating companies, and we're being advised by Darien Goodwin and other independent transport experts.

As Labour lead member of the Select Committee, I have also made sure that the scope of our investigation will include the station improvements (at Forest Hill Station in particular) that are vital to encourage more rail travel, and will make an important contribution to the town centre environment in general.

The next meeting of this review will be on Thursday 5th October, starting at 7:30pm at the Town Hall Civic Suite. It's open to the public and members of FHSoc who are interested in transport issues would be most welcome to attend. The agenda should be available shortly via http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/CouncilAndDemocracy/Cou ncilMeetings/

Blushingsnail · Post by **Blushingsnail** » 26 Sep 2006 14:23

Greg: you're presuming that the 'fast' trains will continue calling at Sydenham/Forest Hill. What if the powers-that-be decide to run the Dorking trains straight through from Norwood Junction to London Bridge, in light of the new East London Line service? They may well argue that it'll improve the journey time for Dorking etc passengers, and Syd and FH passengers will have additional services courtesy of ELLX.

Network Rail are currently undertaking a Route Utilisation Strategy for south London (scoping document here [you'll need to copy & paste because link not working properly]: www.networkrail.co.uk/browseDirectory.a ... 2895&root= ). Hopefully they’ll be considering passenger capacity on the trains, rather than just the number of trains – or am I being unreasonably optimistic?!

There were recently some people at FH station counting (I think) the number of passengers entering and exiting the station. Was this done at Sydenham too? It will give them an idea of passenger usage during peak periods, so perhaps it was part of the RUS work.

Is anyone going to the Council's Sustainable Development Select Committee meeting on 5 October?

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 26 Sep 2006 14:41

I am presuming exactly that. Until someone tells me differently and actually has something substansive to back up the scare-mongering I'll carry on presuming that my journey in 2010 will be no different than today.

I'm quite happy to react and will add my voice to any pressure groups or petitions etc but I fully believe my suggestion that there will be less ELLX trains is just as viable as any put forward thus far.

Remember, there's also a limit to the number of trains that can use the middle track (Brighton/Uckfield trains etc). It's the very reason that the 1825 has to wait in line behind the 1818 before we can get into FH in the evening (you may notice we follow immediately behind the 1818 when the 1825 pulls into FH and Syd, in fact the 1818'ers often haven't even left the station yet) If the 'fast' trains DON'T stop at Syd and FH what do you propose they do? They'll still have to wait behind the trains in front so why wouldn't they stop?? - food for thought.

I shall be attending the meeting on the 5th.

Edit: the 0745 was the 'Ghost' train I was referring to.

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 26 Sep 2006 16:14

I'll be attending the meeting on the 5th October. It would be good if we managed to obtain minutes of the last meeting, since I undestand from John Paschoud that the ELLX was discussed in some detail then.

Greg - I look forward to seeing you at this meeting. I think the important thing about the ELLX and possible cuts in existing services is that the situation is still fluid - after all, we are still four years from the opening of the new line. The first thing we have to establish are facts about its operation and then I think we can influence the powers that be to reach a sensible and balanced solution to this area's transport needs.

All of the civic amenities groups along the line - the FH, Sydenham, Brockley and Hillyfield Societies - intend to form a united transport group on this issue, so everyone should have a chance to see what is proposed before we progress.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 26 Sep 2006 16:23

And I you, nasaroc. I hope it was clear that it's not a case of burying my head in the sand but there's as much chance that our journeys will remain unaffected as there is that the ELLX will have a negative impact on what is currently a quick, reliable and comfortable journey.

Both yourself and Blushingsnail are correct in that we should take positive action to ensure that the CSDSC are bent to our will by presenting a united front rather than relying on blind faith (in my case)

raymondus · Post by **raymondus** » 26 Sep 2006 17:08

In a response to one of my questions a while ago, I thought that Len Duvall (or someone else on this board) said that only one train per hour would be cut from the London Bridge route. If it is more than that, I will be most angry as the ELLX is a route to nowhere - Surrey Quays and Canada Water - oh joy.

I shall also be attending this meeting.

kster · Post by **kster** » 26 Sep 2006 18:34

but I can't see how cancelling the Victoria loop will have that great an effect for residents of Sydenham

I disagree, I think that is a really useful service at the moment and will still be essential once the ELL opens. If you are going to SW London then it is a couple of stops up to Clapham, where you can catch a train to 1000s of places. With the Overground /ELL terminating at West Croydon (despite it supposedly being a orbital train), your option is to go on the increasingly pack train to LB and change to Waterloo East then walk to Waterloo (which will take a lot longer, be more packed and be more expensive). Either that or the new cattletruck in the opposite direction to Surrey Quays and change there.

I am coming to the conclusion that we would be better off without this new service. 6 new trains an hour to nowhere for a significant loss to our current useful services. Is it too late to campaign against the ELL?

Peak Hillbilly · Post by **Peak Hillbilly** » 26 Sep 2006 19:51

I thought I would post a positive message about the ELL which I use every day to get to my work in Hoxton. It's quicker than going to London Bridge and taking a bus, plus I avoid going into zone 1 so it's also cheaper. The carriages seem cleaner than the tube and being overground part of the way, it's obviously brighter and the atmosphere seems more relaxed. It's definitely not a line to nowhere! It currently crosses the Jubilee, District and Metropolitan lines as well. Once the new line is opened my own journey door to door will be 30 minutes.

Greg Whitehead · Post by **Greg Whitehead** » 26 Sep 2006 23:27

kster wrote:
but I can't see how cancelling the Victoria loop will have that great an effect for residents of Sydenham
I disagree, I think that is a really useful service at the moment and will still be essential once the ELL opens. If you are going to SW London then it is a couple of stops up to Clapham, where you can catch a train to 1000s of places. With the Overground /ELL terminating at West Croydon (despite it supposedly being a orbital train), your option is to go on the increasingly pack train to LB and change to Waterloo East then walk to Waterloo (which will take a lot longer, be more packed and be more expensive). Either that or the new cattletruck in the opposite direction to Surrey Quays and change there.

I am coming to the conclusion that we would be better off without this new service. 6 new trains an hour to nowhere for a significant loss to our current useful services. Is it too late to campaign against the ELL?

You're right Kster, sorry. Truth be told I've caught it home from Victoria a fair few times, quite quick really considering it does one mighty loop.

I feel for any tourist who gets on it in error - and I have seen them do it before. It must seem a great deal longer between Victoria and L.Bridge than it appears on the map...

kster · Post by **kster** » 27 Sep 2006 10:37

You certainly wouldn’t want to go all the way from LB to Victoria on there, I have wondered if anyone has done that by mistake. But it is a great service for connecting places on route so that you done have to go in and out of Zone 1 just to go east to west.

I’m glad that Peak Hillbilly will find the ELLX useful and I’m sure a couple more people will find it useful going to see Arsenal on a Saturday. But it isn’t giving us a new route to the Jubilee line, it just takes out the need to change trains at New Cross Gate. Whilst that will shave 5 minutes off the journey time to Canary Wharf, there is a big price to pay for that (i.e. taking out several already packed trains to LB and possibly the LB to Vic train). I can’t see how that can possibly be a net improvement to the transport options for Sydenham.

raymondus · Post by **raymondus** » 27 Sep 2006 21:27

I agree. Gesture politics. Another great anouncement to make about improving services without properly measuring demand or impact.

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 28 Sep 2006 13:03

The agenda for the meeting about the ELLX at Lewisham Council Thursday next week is now on line - follow link below:

http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/CouncilAndDe ... 051006.htm

raymondus · Post by **raymondus** » 29 Sep 2006 01:01

We're going to need to ask some pertinent questions backed by statistics. I think we will be blinded by irrelevant facts at the meeting, namely x amount of trains per hour. Of course x trains per hour sounds great (its a big number) but what we are concerned with is the number of trains in a given direction on a given hour, their destination, what the capacity is at the moment, and whether the up trains to LB empty at New Cross Gate. In my experience they don't, which would indicate that the majority of people go to LB. Furthermore, whenever I look across the platforms at the ELL trains, there is always plenty of room on the trains. I wonder if when ELLX starts up, we will be looking at half empty trains?

I will put aside some time to compile stats as to no of trains going up and down per hour so we can debunk any BS at the meeting.

nasaroc · Post by **nasaroc** » 29 Sep 2006 14:02

Raymondus - I think you make some very good points in your posting but please remember that this isn't a public meeting; it's a meeting between elected councillors and officials which members of the public are allowed to attend as observers. I attended a meeting of this committee last year - members of the public weren't allowed to speak. Those questioning the speakers were elected councillors and Lewisham council officers.

Blushingsnail · Post by **Blushingsnail** » 29 Sep 2006 16:23

Raymondus: I don't think the ELLX trains will be half empty on our part of the route - they'll be full of people going to New Cross Gate to change onto a train to London Bridge! If Southern have to cut the number of London Bridge trains calling at Sydenham etc to accommodate the ELLX service, I presume they may run them fast from Croydon/Norwood Junction to New Cross Gate instead, in which case it may be easier (!) for us to take the ELLX to NCG and change, rather than wait for a direct train. I hope it doesn't come to that but I wouldn't be surprised.

I should also point out that the Rail Review that the Sust. Dev. Select Committee are discussing next Thursday evening covers the whole borough, not just our route, so don't expect too much from it.

raymondus · Post by **raymondus** » 4 Oct 2006 08:33

I am rather ill and will sadly not be able to make the meeting on Oct 5th. However, could anyone who is going please take a note to post on the board so we can take whatever action need to be taken (if any).

Thanks

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