Firstly, I'm really enjoying going through the old films and photographs of the Crystal Palace at Sydenham.
But I'm a little confused. Why was it almost always referred to as 'The Crystal Palace at Sydenham'? I know we are close by but from what I can tell it was on land excised from Penge Common and from plots of land sold off from Penge Place?
Was it simply that even back then Penge was not an address that would draw visitors? Why not Upper Norwood though? After all, that's the real name for the residential area known as Crystal Palace. Did the same apply as with Penge that even back in 1854 Norwood held little cachet?
I also wondered if anyone knew more about the actual building Penge Place. I could only find this:
http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/bromley/c ... e-site.htm
Penge Place
I am also confused as to why it was referred to as the "Crystal Palace at Sydenham". The area does not appear to be referred to as Sydenham before the Crystal Palace was constructed.
A search in The Times newspaper before the 1854, brings up the use of 'Penge Hill' to advertise the location of a nearby house. That house was Kingswood which was in Dulwich near to Sydenham Hill Station.
I've assumed the use of Sydenham was linked to the railways. The relocation of the Crystal Palace to Norwood, or Penge Hill, was in large part funded by the railway which goes through Sydenham. The Crystal Palace was primarily reached by a railway spur just after Sydenham Station.
Maybe Sydenham was also know to people in 1854, but Penge / Upper Norwood wasnt, and therefore using the name Sydenham was a good way of advertising the location of the building relative to London?
A search in The Times newspaper before the 1854, brings up the use of 'Penge Hill' to advertise the location of a nearby house. That house was Kingswood which was in Dulwich near to Sydenham Hill Station.
I've assumed the use of Sydenham was linked to the railways. The relocation of the Crystal Palace to Norwood, or Penge Hill, was in large part funded by the railway which goes through Sydenham. The Crystal Palace was primarily reached by a railway spur just after Sydenham Station.
Maybe Sydenham was also know to people in 1854, but Penge / Upper Norwood wasnt, and therefore using the name Sydenham was a good way of advertising the location of the building relative to London?
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I see. So it was for branding reasons. Fair enough, I can understand why they called it the Crystal Palace at Sydenham.
I had to laugh. The other day I Was in Crystal Palace and picked up the 'Transmitter' magazine. It's strapline was "serving the whole of SE London" or something but it's content was exclusively about Upper Norwood, sorry Crystal Palace. Fair enough but don't have ideas beyond one's station.
jmc: Good thinking on your part. I sort of considered that. It's closer to Penge West or Anerely on the Sydenham line which is why I had discounted that theory. I like your thinking though.
I had to laugh. The other day I Was in Crystal Palace and picked up the 'Transmitter' magazine. It's strapline was "serving the whole of SE London" or something but it's content was exclusively about Upper Norwood, sorry Crystal Palace. Fair enough but don't have ideas beyond one's station.
jmc: Good thinking on your part. I sort of considered that. It's closer to Penge West or Anerely on the Sydenham line which is why I had discounted that theory. I like your thinking though.
penge place
Penge Place
I have been following this subject with some interest and can understand the confusion relating to the actual site of the Crystal Palace, as it would appear to be situated in “No Mans Land” between Lambeth, Croydon, Lewisham and Bromley. As a child, I was taught, (at school in Sydenham, in the period 1923-1932) that Sydenham was part of the County of London., hence we were educated under the control of the London County Council, (LCC).
We were also given to understand that the Palace was built on Sydenham Hill and that the South Tower, (the birthplace of television, as it became known), marked the point where the counties of London, Kent and Surrey joined each other. It would appear that the Crystal Palace Parade and the building itself were within the county of London but the grounds were within Kent. Coming back to the South Tower, it was said that one could see many counties on a clear day, (unfortunately, I cannot remember the exact number, but the “Hog’s Back” near Guildford could be seen as well as the South Downs. We were also given to understand that the base of the North Tower was on a level with the cross at the top of St.Paul’s Cathedral which is reputed to be 365 ft above sea level. As a child I was fortunate to have been taken to the top of this tower many times. We either climbed the spiral staircase which circumnavigated the brick chimney that contained a lift, counting the number of steps as we climbed, or used the lift and walked back down the stairs. I can well remember looking along the roof of the Palace towards the South Tower where, rumour had it that Blondin did a tight rope walk between the towers. This I doubt, he probably did perform there on many occasions, but I can assure you that the views from the tower were amazing and very difficult to forget...
Returning to the subject of mapping the area, as a matter of interest, at the outbreak of WW2, Penge, being in Kent, was not included in the envisaged area of danger from air attack, as was the County of London with the result that the children were not evacuated as were the Londoners. This was eventually changed when some of the first bombs to fall were in Penge and at the end of the period of the Battle of Britain, the square mile of Penge held the record of receiving the most incidents of bombing in the South East of England. The first to fall in my memory was in Kangley Bridge Road in Lower Sydenham, (technically, in Beckenham) and another in Leonard Road Penge...
On the subject of railway stations, (I do hate the use of “train stations”) there were four bearing the name Sydenham, but three of them were not in Sydenham. (Sydenham Hill, Upper Sydenham and Lower Sydenham0 being outside, the first two in Dulwich and the latter in Beckenham.
I seem to remember that the boundary between Sydenham (London) and Beckenham (Kent) was marked by a line of old Oak Trees and at one time, I was sleeping with my feet in Kent and the rest of me in London.
I have been following this subject with some interest and can understand the confusion relating to the actual site of the Crystal Palace, as it would appear to be situated in “No Mans Land” between Lambeth, Croydon, Lewisham and Bromley. As a child, I was taught, (at school in Sydenham, in the period 1923-1932) that Sydenham was part of the County of London., hence we were educated under the control of the London County Council, (LCC).
We were also given to understand that the Palace was built on Sydenham Hill and that the South Tower, (the birthplace of television, as it became known), marked the point where the counties of London, Kent and Surrey joined each other. It would appear that the Crystal Palace Parade and the building itself were within the county of London but the grounds were within Kent. Coming back to the South Tower, it was said that one could see many counties on a clear day, (unfortunately, I cannot remember the exact number, but the “Hog’s Back” near Guildford could be seen as well as the South Downs. We were also given to understand that the base of the North Tower was on a level with the cross at the top of St.Paul’s Cathedral which is reputed to be 365 ft above sea level. As a child I was fortunate to have been taken to the top of this tower many times. We either climbed the spiral staircase which circumnavigated the brick chimney that contained a lift, counting the number of steps as we climbed, or used the lift and walked back down the stairs. I can well remember looking along the roof of the Palace towards the South Tower where, rumour had it that Blondin did a tight rope walk between the towers. This I doubt, he probably did perform there on many occasions, but I can assure you that the views from the tower were amazing and very difficult to forget...
Returning to the subject of mapping the area, as a matter of interest, at the outbreak of WW2, Penge, being in Kent, was not included in the envisaged area of danger from air attack, as was the County of London with the result that the children were not evacuated as were the Londoners. This was eventually changed when some of the first bombs to fall were in Penge and at the end of the period of the Battle of Britain, the square mile of Penge held the record of receiving the most incidents of bombing in the South East of England. The first to fall in my memory was in Kangley Bridge Road in Lower Sydenham, (technically, in Beckenham) and another in Leonard Road Penge...
On the subject of railway stations, (I do hate the use of “train stations”) there were four bearing the name Sydenham, but three of them were not in Sydenham. (Sydenham Hill, Upper Sydenham and Lower Sydenham0 being outside, the first two in Dulwich and the latter in Beckenham.
I seem to remember that the boundary between Sydenham (London) and Beckenham (Kent) was marked by a line of old Oak Trees and at one time, I was sleeping with my feet in Kent and the rest of me in London.
regoneil: As with your tales of Sydenham I thoroughly enjoyed your post here. I am starting to understand how the actual building was in Sydenham Hill yet most of the grounds were Penge. Agreed though it's a bit of a no-mans land. Even now no-one seems to want to take the park under it's wing. London Borough of Bromley seems to just ignore it, in my personal opinion.
Just 3 things regarding your post?
1) You are correct in that Upper Norwood is a real 'cross-roads' of 4 London Boroughs (although the London Borough of Southwark is only 600m away). I've lifted this * straight from Wikipedia:
* The ridge and the historic oak tree known as The Vicars Oak (located at the present-day crossroads of the A212 Church Road and A214 Westow Hill) were used to mark parish boundaries. This has led to the Crystal Palace area straddling the boundaries of five London Boroughs; Lewisham, Bromley, Croydon, Lambeth and Southwark. The area also straddles at least three postcodes (SE26. SE19, SE20). The ancient boundary between Surrey and Kent passes through the area and from 1889 to 1965 the area lay on the south eastern boundary of the County of London. It included parts of Kent and Surrey until 1889 and then parts of Kent, London and Surrey between 1889-1965.
2) You might also like to see how the area of the Crystal Palace [367 ft] stacks up against other London 'high-points'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hi ... _in_London
3) Just on your point of most of Sydenham's railway stations not actually being in Sydenham, are you sure?
Sydenham Hill station is definitely in Dulwich. I thought Upper Sydenham station booking hall/ticket office still stands off Wells Park road, very much in SE26. Lower Sydenham station again is in an SE26 postcode. At this point the river Pool forms a natural boundary. It is close to Beckenham, I'll admit, but it is in Sydenham...just. Sydenham station is of course irrefutably within SE26. Or am I being silly here and not correlating your point about old boundaries?
Anyway, thanks for sharing your memories regoneil.
Just 3 things regarding your post?
1) You are correct in that Upper Norwood is a real 'cross-roads' of 4 London Boroughs (although the London Borough of Southwark is only 600m away). I've lifted this * straight from Wikipedia:
* The ridge and the historic oak tree known as The Vicars Oak (located at the present-day crossroads of the A212 Church Road and A214 Westow Hill) were used to mark parish boundaries. This has led to the Crystal Palace area straddling the boundaries of five London Boroughs; Lewisham, Bromley, Croydon, Lambeth and Southwark. The area also straddles at least three postcodes (SE26. SE19, SE20). The ancient boundary between Surrey and Kent passes through the area and from 1889 to 1965 the area lay on the south eastern boundary of the County of London. It included parts of Kent and Surrey until 1889 and then parts of Kent, London and Surrey between 1889-1965.
2) You might also like to see how the area of the Crystal Palace [367 ft] stacks up against other London 'high-points'?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hi ... _in_London
3) Just on your point of most of Sydenham's railway stations not actually being in Sydenham, are you sure?
Sydenham Hill station is definitely in Dulwich. I thought Upper Sydenham station booking hall/ticket office still stands off Wells Park road, very much in SE26. Lower Sydenham station again is in an SE26 postcode. At this point the river Pool forms a natural boundary. It is close to Beckenham, I'll admit, but it is in Sydenham...just. Sydenham station is of course irrefutably within SE26. Or am I being silly here and not correlating your point about old boundaries?
Anyway, thanks for sharing your memories regoneil.
Last edited by Ulysses on 30 Oct 2009 10:27, edited 1 time in total.
Good post MartinH. Very funny, very helpful. Skim-reading some of your old posts you're obviously the local joker [note: I did not say village idiot]. Or is this unfairly argumentum ad hominem on my part toward you?MartinH wrote:Yes, you are being silly. Reg did say "WERE not in Sydenham".
regoneil: Can you help me here please? The thought of Wells Park Road not being considered Sydenham is really confusing (assuming MartinH's inference is correct).
Just for clarity in where I am coming from, when I look at a current map; Sydenham station, Lower Sydenham station and what was Upper Sydenham station all fall within the SE26 postcode. They also all fall within the boundary of the LB of Lewisham also.
I understand boundaries can shift over time but I had never considered that in the relatively recent past some of these areas would not have been viewed as actually being IN Sydenham...
Penge Place
In reply to the question from Konqi, relating to the aquarium housing an Avery and Menagerie. I am afraid that I cannot recall any such building in my time. I have seen pictures of the building in this forum but can only assume that they were destroyed during the fire that destroyed the North nave, many years ago.
My recollections of the area during the twenties and thirties were that adjacent to the north tower was the residence of Sir Henry Buckland, “Rock Hills”, Two very large water tanks situated high in the air to one side of the tower and, between it and the Palace was a large square static water tank on which a form of speedboat racing was attempted at one time. There was, I remember, an Avery situated at the south nave close to the famous glass water fountain. I cannot remember whether it was situated between the fountain and the huge clock that graced the southern end of the building. I seem to recall that it was reported in the newspapers following the fire that some birds escaped. Incidentally, it will be seventy six years ago tomorrow night, 31.10.1936, that the fire destroyed the palace, (I was approaching the age of seventeen at the time and I watched it burn.)
May I return to the subject of boundaries?
Way back in the twenties and thirties, we kids learned the geography of London from the bus maps that were available, free of cost from most omnibuses. They were always to be found in a small shelf below the stairs to the upper deck. These maps were very informative and showed all the important places of interest. Fare stages were usually depicted by the name of the nearest pub or church. If a certain place was not served by a bus, then it was of no import as far as we were concerned. Upper Sydenham and Lower Sydenham stations were not served by any bus route! So were not important to us.
Regarding boundaries, these were not shown on the bus maps, (or tram maps). To us kids, Southend Lane, Lower Sydenham was a way out to foreign parts. Once we passed under the railway bridge we would be exploring and on the left hand side of the lane leading up to Peter Pans Pool, was the area of LCC Housing named the Bellingham Estate, There were restrictions on the tenants that they were not allowed to keep a car and later, they were not allowed to erect a T.V.Aerial. Also, the residents were not allowed to have licensed premises on the estate. To overcome the latter, the Brewers built a pub just outside the boundary just up the hill of Southend Lane above the river Pool
The lane was actually the boundary between the County of London and Kent. And the area between the river and the pub was used as a landfill area and was infested with rats...This was an area that appealed to us kids as we would explore along the banks of the river for some distance and return on other side after crossing on a drainage pie that crossed somewhere in Beckenham. At that time, the only building on Worsley Bridge Road, (an unmade road leading to Coperscope Road, in Beckenham) was the railway station which had a crescent shaped road leading up to and leaving the site. As far as we were concerned, it was foreign land to us and was on our route to gather conkers from the harvest of chestnuts trees in Coperscope Road...
Due to the lack of official signs, we made our own logical boundaries.
Ulysses,
Thank you for your remarks and your references that are noted with interest.
If I may return to the subject of the South Tower, I recall most clearly reading, in a copy of the Sydenham, Forest Hill and Penge Gazette, during the weeks of the start of WW2, a small item stating that John Logie Baird had successfully transmitted a coloured film from the Tower, to a cinema in Bromley, Kent where it was projected onto the screen and seen by an audience
My recollections of the area during the twenties and thirties were that adjacent to the north tower was the residence of Sir Henry Buckland, “Rock Hills”, Two very large water tanks situated high in the air to one side of the tower and, between it and the Palace was a large square static water tank on which a form of speedboat racing was attempted at one time. There was, I remember, an Avery situated at the south nave close to the famous glass water fountain. I cannot remember whether it was situated between the fountain and the huge clock that graced the southern end of the building. I seem to recall that it was reported in the newspapers following the fire that some birds escaped. Incidentally, it will be seventy six years ago tomorrow night, 31.10.1936, that the fire destroyed the palace, (I was approaching the age of seventeen at the time and I watched it burn.)
May I return to the subject of boundaries?
Way back in the twenties and thirties, we kids learned the geography of London from the bus maps that were available, free of cost from most omnibuses. They were always to be found in a small shelf below the stairs to the upper deck. These maps were very informative and showed all the important places of interest. Fare stages were usually depicted by the name of the nearest pub or church. If a certain place was not served by a bus, then it was of no import as far as we were concerned. Upper Sydenham and Lower Sydenham stations were not served by any bus route! So were not important to us.
Regarding boundaries, these were not shown on the bus maps, (or tram maps). To us kids, Southend Lane, Lower Sydenham was a way out to foreign parts. Once we passed under the railway bridge we would be exploring and on the left hand side of the lane leading up to Peter Pans Pool, was the area of LCC Housing named the Bellingham Estate, There were restrictions on the tenants that they were not allowed to keep a car and later, they were not allowed to erect a T.V.Aerial. Also, the residents were not allowed to have licensed premises on the estate. To overcome the latter, the Brewers built a pub just outside the boundary just up the hill of Southend Lane above the river Pool
The lane was actually the boundary between the County of London and Kent. And the area between the river and the pub was used as a landfill area and was infested with rats...This was an area that appealed to us kids as we would explore along the banks of the river for some distance and return on other side after crossing on a drainage pie that crossed somewhere in Beckenham. At that time, the only building on Worsley Bridge Road, (an unmade road leading to Coperscope Road, in Beckenham) was the railway station which had a crescent shaped road leading up to and leaving the site. As far as we were concerned, it was foreign land to us and was on our route to gather conkers from the harvest of chestnuts trees in Coperscope Road...
Due to the lack of official signs, we made our own logical boundaries.
Ulysses,
Thank you for your remarks and your references that are noted with interest.
If I may return to the subject of the South Tower, I recall most clearly reading, in a copy of the Sydenham, Forest Hill and Penge Gazette, during the weeks of the start of WW2, a small item stating that John Logie Baird had successfully transmitted a coloured film from the Tower, to a cinema in Bromley, Kent where it was projected onto the screen and seen by an audience
Its important to note that postcodes have no links to recognised boundaries. Postcodes are simply a method a private company called Royal Mail uses to sort its product. Postcodes allow mail room sorters to quickly send on mail to the main sorting office and then the sub-sorting office. Since they are simply a list of sorting offices, and groups of houses they don't define a boundary.Ulysses wrote:when I look at a current map; Sydenham station, Lower Sydenham station and what was Upper Sydenham station all fall within the SE26 postcode. They also all fall within the boundary of the LB of Lewisham also.
You can draw a boundary around an a group of similarly named postcodes to see where postcodes (or more correctly sub-sorting offices) are found but this will not match up with an official boundary (sometimes it does but its just coincidence)
To help with the sorting, Royal Mail will describe postcode using a known area name. This to give you a rough understanding of where the postcode will be in your region. Royal Mail make its very clear their postcodes do not define areas.
Re: Penge Place
Anyone knows when the area was first called Crystal Palace? And did CPFC take the name before the area?