Next Meet the Manager session with Southern Railway is on Thursday 15th October at London Bridge - 0730-0930. Please take a few minutes out of your morning commute to speak to the managers from Southern Railway.
* Ask them why it is Southern customers that must suffer for the rearranged late evening services? Why were South Eastern able to keep all their services to Charing Cross (without adding any additional services)?
* Let them know the effect the cuts to off-peak and evening peak services will make to your journey.
* Ask them why 6 trains per hour are needed in the morning and only 4 are needed to go home in the evening?
* Ask them why there appears to be a coordinated effort to cut South London train services (Sydenham Line, South London Loop, and Bellingham to Victoria), and what this says about their commitment to running passenger services for South Londoners.
We hope that as many people as possible can show their concern about these plans.
Meet the Manager - 15th October
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bigbadwolf
- Posts: 726
- Joined: 7 Jan 2008 21:21
- Location: Forest Hill and Sydenham
All very public spirited and proper of you Michael but I've stated this several times before on the se23 forum:
Why on earth should people interupt an already stressful enough commute to work, to talk to the knobheads who facilitate the farce they pay an ever increasing ransom to use?
Really Michael. I know you're not responsible for policy at Southern, but could you at least ask your mate to make the meeting/facedown with their victims more convenient. Not the other way round whereby the customers/victims have got far more pressing proirities than to stand on a cold platform talking to some junior media fodder management scapegoat who couldn't instigate any change even if they wanted to. If they did take the opportunity to make themselves heard they'd probably forget any rehearsed argument they'd put together.
They real aim behind this "meet the manager" toffee is so if Southern are cornered over any dispute regarding their service, then they can say:
"Well we do have a policy in whereby we're happy to meet our customers on a platform at their convenience."
Rather than sit down in a peaceful enviroment and hammer out any gripes their customers have.
Why on earth should people interupt an already stressful enough commute to work, to talk to the knobheads who facilitate the farce they pay an ever increasing ransom to use?
Really Michael. I know you're not responsible for policy at Southern, but could you at least ask your mate to make the meeting/facedown with their victims more convenient. Not the other way round whereby the customers/victims have got far more pressing proirities than to stand on a cold platform talking to some junior media fodder management scapegoat who couldn't instigate any change even if they wanted to. If they did take the opportunity to make themselves heard they'd probably forget any rehearsed argument they'd put together.
They real aim behind this "meet the manager" toffee is so if Southern are cornered over any dispute regarding their service, then they can say:
"Well we do have a policy in whereby we're happy to meet our customers on a platform at their convenience."
Rather than sit down in a peaceful enviroment and hammer out any gripes their customers have.
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Paddy Pantsdown
- Posts: 204
- Joined: 1 Oct 2004 10:04
- Location: Venner Road
I presume that means you will not be making a contribution BBW?
Fair enough, Michael was just making you aware of the opportunity to maintain the attack on Sydenham's transport infrastructure and support those trying to do something about it.
You don't think it will help. What are you going to do instead? Do you think Southern Railway people reading your words will be motivated into listening or be disgusted, like me, at your rather revolting fusillade?
On that basis many Sydenham people may be very glad you will not be at London Bridge Thursday. It is just a shame we here in Sydenham have to endure your rather unpleasant asides instead of a considered rational debate.
Wasn't that what you wanted?
PP
Fair enough, Michael was just making you aware of the opportunity to maintain the attack on Sydenham's transport infrastructure and support those trying to do something about it.
You don't think it will help. What are you going to do instead? Do you think Southern Railway people reading your words will be motivated into listening or be disgusted, like me, at your rather revolting fusillade?
On that basis many Sydenham people may be very glad you will not be at London Bridge Thursday. It is just a shame we here in Sydenham have to endure your rather unpleasant asides instead of a considered rational debate.
Wasn't that what you wanted?
PP
BBW:
It is not just the managers who will be present, we are arranging for politicians and the media to be present as well.
In Sydenham people have already had a chance to meet the managers on their own turf thanks to the meeting arranged by the Sydenham Society, but we need to pull together to show Southern that this is not just an issue for Sydenham but for all commuters on this line.
We have to attack this from every angle and showing up in force on Thursday will really help to put pressure in every way possible. I don't believe in letting any opportunities go to waste.
Of course you could just call them knobheads and continue on your commute if you think it will do much good, but I think that delaying your journey for 10 minutes on Thursday is worth it to oppose the sweeping cuts to the services.
It is not just the managers who will be present, we are arranging for politicians and the media to be present as well.
In Sydenham people have already had a chance to meet the managers on their own turf thanks to the meeting arranged by the Sydenham Society, but we need to pull together to show Southern that this is not just an issue for Sydenham but for all commuters on this line.
We have to attack this from every angle and showing up in force on Thursday will really help to put pressure in every way possible. I don't believe in letting any opportunities go to waste.
Of course you could just call them knobheads and continue on your commute if you think it will do much good, but I think that delaying your journey for 10 minutes on Thursday is worth it to oppose the sweeping cuts to the services.
I use the Sydenham Hill - Victoria service and I used the "meet the manager" sessions last year to complain about the reduction in the number of carriages. The manager I spoke to did note my complaint, mentioned that other people had said the same, and several months later (when the timetable was due to be revised) the number of carriages increased. OK I can't prove a connection between the two events, but it does suggest to me that it can be useful means by which to communicate with the rail companies, and is not to be ignored. We are after all only talking about spending a few minutes talking to someone in a railway station.
And can I say that in two recent Meet the Manager sessions run by Southern Railways that I have attended, the managers weren't just "junior media fodder management scapegoats who couldn't instigate any change even if they wanted to". A couple of people on the main board of Southern Railways were also present.
No opponent, as a first step, ever agrees to sit down with you to hammer out a change. You need to put them under pressure first. Which is what Michael is trying to do.
But Bigbadwolf - if you have additional ideas to help solve the situation or want to let us know what you have done to date yourself - please let us know.
No opponent, as a first step, ever agrees to sit down with you to hammer out a change. You need to put them under pressure first. Which is what Michael is trying to do.
But Bigbadwolf - if you have additional ideas to help solve the situation or want to let us know what you have done to date yourself - please let us know.
To be fair to BBW it was never mentioned that politicians and media would be present before he aimed his broadside at the 'friendly face of Southern management' stall, who from what I have gathered have already excused themselves from any responsibility.
One option would be for many of the (rushing) commuters who have just piled off the train to line up to take their chance to explain what the cuts mean to them. Another option would be to try to seek out the cameras/policitians.
A third option that would cause Southern embarrassment and highlight to other commuters what is going on is that those who have not got time to stop and chat could walk past and shout "Shame!" or suchlike. Enough people doing that would get picked up by the news and policitians.
One option would be for many of the (rushing) commuters who have just piled off the train to line up to take their chance to explain what the cuts mean to them. Another option would be to try to seek out the cameras/policitians.
A third option that would cause Southern embarrassment and highlight to other commuters what is going on is that those who have not got time to stop and chat could walk past and shout "Shame!" or suchlike. Enough people doing that would get picked up by the news and policitians.
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bigbadwolf
- Posts: 726
- Joined: 7 Jan 2008 21:21
- Location: Forest Hill and Sydenham
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norwich_girl
- Posts: 14
- Joined: 17 Sep 2009 09:34
- Location: Sydenham
I went along to the 'meet the manager' session this morning, and they told me that there had been many people before me to ask for information about the cuts to trains from Charing Cross to Sydenham in the new year, and also to have concerns about the reduction in service from London Bridge to Sydenham in the evening. They also said that however many people complain, the timetable is now set and will not be changed although it may be reviewed in the future. There will be no reduction in price of a season ticket to reflect the fact that many will be paying to stand rather than sit. the only consolation they could offer was that they expect the cost of a season ticket to fall by a few pounds due to the fact that the RPI has gone down, but that is not really the point. They have forms that you can submit to them with your concerns detailed and they say they will reply personally, but overall it seemed a waste of time as nothing will be changed anyway.
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bigbadwolf
- Posts: 726
- Joined: 7 Jan 2008 21:21
- Location: Forest Hill and Sydenham
Thanks to everybody who stopped by. I really think it made an impression on Southern staff including Chris Burchill, Managing Director of Southern - who was present alongside representatives from Network Rail, and Caroline Pidgeon, chair of the GLA transport committee.
Chris Burchill was upset that the newspapers were portraying these changes as cuts. They are apparently not 'cuts', just changes to the start, end and mid points of journeys. hmmm
All their answers came down to 'it's not our fault, we are told which trains to run and to where, we have no flexibility over services, and there are lots of other demands on the line'.
Our next step will be to ask for a meeting with the DfT. I managed to get Southern representatives to agree that they would like to run 6 trains per hour in the evening if they were allowed to, similarly they would like to be able to run trains to Charing Cross. They did ask for these in the franchise consultation. So now we need to persuade DfT that there is no sense in running 8 trains on the East London Line to Forest Hill and only 6 trains from London Bridge.
The Charing Cross service will be even harder to save but the easy answer (from my perspective) is to open Cannon Street station after 8pm so that the South Eastern services can continue to use this route rather than pinching our routes.
There was a general consensus that we should be extending platforms to 12 carriages rather than stopping at 10 carriages prior to 2012. Southern would like platforms 'as long as possible' and would like to run 12 carriage trains if it were possible to do so. Caroline Pidgeon seemed particularly interested in the possibility of taking the platform lengths to 12 carriages. So we shall be pursuing this over the next couple of years.
Chris Burchill was upset that the newspapers were portraying these changes as cuts. They are apparently not 'cuts', just changes to the start, end and mid points of journeys. hmmm
All their answers came down to 'it's not our fault, we are told which trains to run and to where, we have no flexibility over services, and there are lots of other demands on the line'.
Our next step will be to ask for a meeting with the DfT. I managed to get Southern representatives to agree that they would like to run 6 trains per hour in the evening if they were allowed to, similarly they would like to be able to run trains to Charing Cross. They did ask for these in the franchise consultation. So now we need to persuade DfT that there is no sense in running 8 trains on the East London Line to Forest Hill and only 6 trains from London Bridge.
The Charing Cross service will be even harder to save but the easy answer (from my perspective) is to open Cannon Street station after 8pm so that the South Eastern services can continue to use this route rather than pinching our routes.
There was a general consensus that we should be extending platforms to 12 carriages rather than stopping at 10 carriages prior to 2012. Southern would like platforms 'as long as possible' and would like to run 12 carriage trains if it were possible to do so. Caroline Pidgeon seemed particularly interested in the possibility of taking the platform lengths to 12 carriages. So we shall be pursuing this over the next couple of years.
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Muddy Waters
- Posts: 137
- Joined: 2 Oct 2004 17:05
Good coverage in both the South London Press and Standard on protests against rail cuts.
Here is the Evening Standard link
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... 3CA6874BA2
Here is the Evening Standard link
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/ ... 3CA6874BA2
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
I made my views known at the Meet the Manager event, but the person I spoke to wasn't able to respond to my specific comments. As her colleagues were busy, she offered a response by email.
Here's what Southern had to say in an email sent to me today:
Thank you for your meet the Managers comments. In terms of the reduction is services from Sydenham, please find below Southern's response to the South London RUS.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20d ... uthern.pdf
Although Southern did not get everything we wanted into the established RUS, we are delighted that we got the Thameslink programme specification changed to provide 4 trains per hour between the Sydenham line and Thameslink destinations, to provide a significant long term increase of capacity on this route.
The established South London RUS informed the specification of the franchise that the DfT consulted before issuing the invitation to tender containing the specification that Southern is now required to implement.
Southern and the other bidders had to comply with the Invitation to Tender to be successful, if we had bid to operate a different train service the bid would not have been considered and the franchise would have been awarded to a company that bid to operate the franchise as specified.
Before specifying the franchise the DfT publicly consulted and then balanced the conflicting interests to arrive at a specification that in the long term, once London Bridge station re-building and the Thameslink Programme is complete, will result in a very significant increase of capacity for the Sydenham line with direct trains to the many Thameslink destinations to provide many more direct and easier interchange journey opportunities than are currently available. This long term improvement to the Sydenham route has come about partly as a result of the Southern response to the consultation insisting that the Sydenham route required a significant increase of capacity and direct trains to more central London destinations. Below is itemised the developments over the next few years.
From May 2010, this will result in a doubling of the number of trains on the Sydenham line, off peak and evening peak, with additional trains at the height of the morning peak. The off peak and evening peak train service will double from 6 trains per hour to 12 trains per hour as follows:
Northbound
8 trains per hour between Sydenham and East London Line
4 trains per hour between Sydenham and London Bridge
Southbound
6 trains per hour between Sydenham and Crystal Palace, 2 of which run to / from London Victoria
4 trains per hour between Sydenham and West Croydon
2 trains per hour off peak only as now between Sydenham, East Croydon and Caterham, evening peak as now these trains run to West Croydon
Morning high peak hour
Northbound:
8 trains per hour Sydenham to East London Line
6 trains per hour Sydenham to London Bridge
Southbound
6 trains per hour Sydenham to Crystal Palace, 2 of which run to / from London Victoria (This is new, currently no morning high peak trains to Victoria)
4 trains per hour Sydenham to West Croydon
2 trains per hour Sydenham to East Croydon and Caterham.
The additional East London Line trains will take a significant number of passengers away from London Bridge whose destination in London can be accessed as easily from East London Line stations. No peak Sydenham line train will serve stations further than out than Croydon therefore there fewer passengers on the Sydenham line trains, while Wallington, Sutton and Epsom passengers will have the advantage of faster peak trains. From December 2011 Network Rail will have completed works to enable 10 car trains to significantly increase capacity.
From October 2012 the number of available platforms at London Bridge will be reduced to enable the station to be rebuilt as part of the Thameslink Programme will inevitably result in worse crowding on the trains that still serve London Bridge, but when that work is completed 2015, and Sydenham Line trains run through to Thameslink destinations, the Sydenham line will have a considerable increase of capacity that will help accommodate the growth that is expected.
I hope the above goes some distance to clarifying things for you, and I hope it proves of use to you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again should you require any further information or advice.
Here's what Southern had to say in an email sent to me today:
Thank you for your meet the Managers comments. In terms of the reduction is services from Sydenham, please find below Southern's response to the South London RUS.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20d ... uthern.pdf
Although Southern did not get everything we wanted into the established RUS, we are delighted that we got the Thameslink programme specification changed to provide 4 trains per hour between the Sydenham line and Thameslink destinations, to provide a significant long term increase of capacity on this route.
The established South London RUS informed the specification of the franchise that the DfT consulted before issuing the invitation to tender containing the specification that Southern is now required to implement.
Southern and the other bidders had to comply with the Invitation to Tender to be successful, if we had bid to operate a different train service the bid would not have been considered and the franchise would have been awarded to a company that bid to operate the franchise as specified.
Before specifying the franchise the DfT publicly consulted and then balanced the conflicting interests to arrive at a specification that in the long term, once London Bridge station re-building and the Thameslink Programme is complete, will result in a very significant increase of capacity for the Sydenham line with direct trains to the many Thameslink destinations to provide many more direct and easier interchange journey opportunities than are currently available. This long term improvement to the Sydenham route has come about partly as a result of the Southern response to the consultation insisting that the Sydenham route required a significant increase of capacity and direct trains to more central London destinations. Below is itemised the developments over the next few years.
From May 2010, this will result in a doubling of the number of trains on the Sydenham line, off peak and evening peak, with additional trains at the height of the morning peak. The off peak and evening peak train service will double from 6 trains per hour to 12 trains per hour as follows:
Northbound
8 trains per hour between Sydenham and East London Line
4 trains per hour between Sydenham and London Bridge
Southbound
6 trains per hour between Sydenham and Crystal Palace, 2 of which run to / from London Victoria
4 trains per hour between Sydenham and West Croydon
2 trains per hour off peak only as now between Sydenham, East Croydon and Caterham, evening peak as now these trains run to West Croydon
Morning high peak hour
Northbound:
8 trains per hour Sydenham to East London Line
6 trains per hour Sydenham to London Bridge
Southbound
6 trains per hour Sydenham to Crystal Palace, 2 of which run to / from London Victoria (This is new, currently no morning high peak trains to Victoria)
4 trains per hour Sydenham to West Croydon
2 trains per hour Sydenham to East Croydon and Caterham.
The additional East London Line trains will take a significant number of passengers away from London Bridge whose destination in London can be accessed as easily from East London Line stations. No peak Sydenham line train will serve stations further than out than Croydon therefore there fewer passengers on the Sydenham line trains, while Wallington, Sutton and Epsom passengers will have the advantage of faster peak trains. From December 2011 Network Rail will have completed works to enable 10 car trains to significantly increase capacity.
From October 2012 the number of available platforms at London Bridge will be reduced to enable the station to be rebuilt as part of the Thameslink Programme will inevitably result in worse crowding on the trains that still serve London Bridge, but when that work is completed 2015, and Sydenham Line trains run through to Thameslink destinations, the Sydenham line will have a considerable increase of capacity that will help accommodate the growth that is expected.
I hope the above goes some distance to clarifying things for you, and I hope it proves of use to you. Please do not hesitate to contact me again should you require any further information or advice.
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
Thanks for posting the above, biscuitman. My comments on Southern's email:
It's annoyed me the way that Southern are making out that the double amount of trains serving Sydenham is by Southern's design. These are the 8 extra ELL trains - nothing to do with the CUT in the number of Southern trains (...and there may be more trains, but there are less carriages overall).
The email doesn't explain why the cuts are happening in December - some 5 months before the ELL becomes operational.
It goes without saying that although there may be 12 trains heading south through Sydenham in the evening peak - this isn't much good when you're waiting at London Bridge for your quarter-hourly service.
The 4 trains from London Bridge in the evening off-peak will be overcrowded as they are not local services - these trains are going from LB to Victoria and East Croydon or Caterham. The evening peak trains are bound to also be overcrowded as the current Victoria train that leaves 4 minutes after the current Dorking service (the 55 and 51 past) are both overcrowded - imagine what it is going to be like waiting 15 minutes, not 4 minutes, for your next train when you can't get on the first one...
It's annoyed me the way that Southern are making out that the double amount of trains serving Sydenham is by Southern's design. These are the 8 extra ELL trains - nothing to do with the CUT in the number of Southern trains (...and there may be more trains, but there are less carriages overall).
The email doesn't explain why the cuts are happening in December - some 5 months before the ELL becomes operational.
It goes without saying that although there may be 12 trains heading south through Sydenham in the evening peak - this isn't much good when you're waiting at London Bridge for your quarter-hourly service.
The 4 trains from London Bridge in the evening off-peak will be overcrowded as they are not local services - these trains are going from LB to Victoria and East Croydon or Caterham. The evening peak trains are bound to also be overcrowded as the current Victoria train that leaves 4 minutes after the current Dorking service (the 55 and 51 past) are both overcrowded - imagine what it is going to be like waiting 15 minutes, not 4 minutes, for your next train when you can't get on the first one...
Not everyone heads to London Bridge in the morning and leaves London Bridge in the evening.
East Croydon is the busiest station that Southern operate and a major interchange for stations to Gatwick and the south coast. How will the introduction of East London Line services affect the commute to East Croydon?
Or are we expected to get a 75, 450 or 197 instead?
East Croydon is the busiest station that Southern operate and a major interchange for stations to Gatwick and the south coast. How will the introduction of East London Line services affect the commute to East Croydon?
Or are we expected to get a 75, 450 or 197 instead?