If you think that the council is wasting out tax on funding this daft scheme by sticking a mosaic on the Naborhood centre, please put your name below.
It already has one decorative element already and nothing has been said about doing it up first. It needs a lick of paint and decent signage first.
It wont do anything to enhance the high street.
Please Cllr Best, review the situation and DON'T DO IT!
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Poll added by Admin
NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
NO TO THE MOSAIC ON THE NABORHOOD CENTRE
Last edited by leenewham on 22 Jul 2009 13:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Blushingsnail
- Posts: 73
- Joined: 20 Jul 2006 10:38
- Location: Forest Hill
OK, Straight question, I will give a straight answer.
I think it's daft because:
1. There is already a decorative element on there.
2. Nothing has been said about doing the building up first.
3. Having worked on schemes like this before they work much better inside than out as they can look dirty very quickly, especially on a busy road.
4. I haven't seen a visual of what it will look like on the building. Does one exist? Personally I don't think a mosaic will work on the building, I think it will look daft, stuck on like an afterthought.
5. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.
6. I think we should fix problems first before spending lots of money on some artwork most people haven't even seen.
What do you think?
I think it's daft because:
1. There is already a decorative element on there.
2. Nothing has been said about doing the building up first.
3. Having worked on schemes like this before they work much better inside than out as they can look dirty very quickly, especially on a busy road.
4. I haven't seen a visual of what it will look like on the building. Does one exist? Personally I don't think a mosaic will work on the building, I think it will look daft, stuck on like an afterthought.
5. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.
6. I think we should fix problems first before spending lots of money on some artwork most people haven't even seen.
What do you think?
I emailed Chris Best about this and was assured that the building will be cleaned up and decorated before the mosaic is installed - very good. A seating area will also be constructed outside the building.
My personal view is that the mosaic and seating area are a waste of money. The mosaic's appearance will be detracted from by the street drinkers who will no doubt take up residence of the seating area. Mind you, I can't blame them, I'd rather be out on the streets than inside the Two Half's (sic).
My personal view is that the mosaic and seating area are a waste of money. The mosaic's appearance will be detracted from by the street drinkers who will no doubt take up residence of the seating area. Mind you, I can't blame them, I'd rather be out on the streets than inside the Two Half's (sic).
I am delighted by the idea of a mosaic and I am very keen to see this idea progress.
The building will be repaired and refurbished before the mosaic is done as has been pointed out above - so that argument has already been settled.
80% of the cost of the mosaic will be paid for by funds which are currently being applied for outside Lewisham, many of these funds from private donors, so they should be no extra burden on Lewisham taxpayers other than the initial funding of £10,000 - sounds like a great deal to me!
You say that you'd be keen to see the money spent elsewhere Lee. In which case attend the Assembly meetings and put forward your own ideas.
Many people have seen the artworks for the mosaic which are currently being prepared. Over 80 people visted the artists' studio during the SAF and all of them (except one person) fully approved of what's been done to date. Of course, the mosaic artworks will be available for future viewing as they progress.
The building will be repaired and refurbished before the mosaic is done as has been pointed out above - so that argument has already been settled.
80% of the cost of the mosaic will be paid for by funds which are currently being applied for outside Lewisham, many of these funds from private donors, so they should be no extra burden on Lewisham taxpayers other than the initial funding of £10,000 - sounds like a great deal to me!
You say that you'd be keen to see the money spent elsewhere Lee. In which case attend the Assembly meetings and put forward your own ideas.
Many people have seen the artworks for the mosaic which are currently being prepared. Over 80 people visted the artists' studio during the SAF and all of them (except one person) fully approved of what's been done to date. Of course, the mosaic artworks will be available for future viewing as they progress.
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Blushingsnail
- Posts: 73
- Joined: 20 Jul 2006 10:38
- Location: Forest Hill
Lee: following your points:
1. There is already a decorative element on there.
Acknowledged
2. Nothing has been said about doing the building up first.
I think the building needs repainting etc regardless of whether a mosaic is installed, and agree that that should take priority.
3. Having worked on schemes like this before they work much better inside than out as they can look dirty very quickly, especially on a busy road.
I don't have personal knowledge of how dirty mosaics on a busy road can become but this is something that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to proceed with the mosaic.
4. I haven't seen a visual of what it will look like on the building. Does one exist? Personally I don't think a mosaic will work on the building, I think it will look daft, stuck on like an afterthought.
I have seen a basic mock-up: the couple putting forward the idea had their house open as part of the Art Trail weekend. From what I saw and heard, the idea is at an embryonic stage. The couple are motivated by enthusiasm for mosaics and the belief that a public mosaic could contribute something to the centre of Sydenham. They've been inspired by the public mosaics of Oliver Budd of Budd Mosaics (a family firm who have been making public mosaics for over 45 years, according to their website) and wish to contract Oliver Budd to design and make a mosaic for Sydenham. Although they have created a basic mock-up of what the mosaic could look like (with images of local historial events/people, eg Shackleton, Logie-Baird's television transmission at Crystal Palace), they stressed that it was only to give people some ideas of what could be included, and that it would be for Oliver Budd to come up with a suitable design that would be acceptable to Sydenham.
I don't know how much money they applied for from the Ward Assembly, but I know it wouldn't cover the cost of the mosaic itself (additional fundraising would be needed, for quite a considerable amount I believe). I assume (and I stress it is only my assumption) that the Ward Assembly money would be used to take the proposal forward to the next stage, ie get Oliver Budd to produce some designs and mocked-up images of how the mosaic would look on the building. Only after that could people decide whether:
(a) they like the proposed design (I hope it doesn't have white grout - I hate white grout!)
(b) it's suitable for the location, ie that the design and mosaic itself is visible enough from the road to make the project worthwhile (it won't be very effective if it becomes apparent that the building is set so far back from the road that the mosaic can only been seen if you're standing directly in front of it)
plus consider practical matters such as how dirty it will become from traffic fumes, etc, and, of course, how to raise the money for the mosaic.
So Lee, there's really no need to get so worked up about this yet. The idea is still in its infancy and may never reach fruition. But what is certain is that here are two people who are enthusiastic about improving Sydenham and who are willing to put in time and energy to make something come about. Surely we should welcome and harness that, rather than shoot their idea down in flames and send them away with their tails between their legs?
5. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.
6. I think we should fix problems first before spending lots of money on some artwork most people haven't even seen.
Deciding the priority of public spending is always subjective. What problems do you have in mind?
PS: I've got some really bad news for you: the proposal is actually for two mosaics! A main pictorial one beneath the first floor windows and a shallow, long one across the top of the building.
1. There is already a decorative element on there.
Acknowledged
2. Nothing has been said about doing the building up first.
I think the building needs repainting etc regardless of whether a mosaic is installed, and agree that that should take priority.
3. Having worked on schemes like this before they work much better inside than out as they can look dirty very quickly, especially on a busy road.
I don't have personal knowledge of how dirty mosaics on a busy road can become but this is something that should be taken into consideration when deciding whether to proceed with the mosaic.
4. I haven't seen a visual of what it will look like on the building. Does one exist? Personally I don't think a mosaic will work on the building, I think it will look daft, stuck on like an afterthought.
I have seen a basic mock-up: the couple putting forward the idea had their house open as part of the Art Trail weekend. From what I saw and heard, the idea is at an embryonic stage. The couple are motivated by enthusiasm for mosaics and the belief that a public mosaic could contribute something to the centre of Sydenham. They've been inspired by the public mosaics of Oliver Budd of Budd Mosaics (a family firm who have been making public mosaics for over 45 years, according to their website) and wish to contract Oliver Budd to design and make a mosaic for Sydenham. Although they have created a basic mock-up of what the mosaic could look like (with images of local historial events/people, eg Shackleton, Logie-Baird's television transmission at Crystal Palace), they stressed that it was only to give people some ideas of what could be included, and that it would be for Oliver Budd to come up with a suitable design that would be acceptable to Sydenham.
I don't know how much money they applied for from the Ward Assembly, but I know it wouldn't cover the cost of the mosaic itself (additional fundraising would be needed, for quite a considerable amount I believe). I assume (and I stress it is only my assumption) that the Ward Assembly money would be used to take the proposal forward to the next stage, ie get Oliver Budd to produce some designs and mocked-up images of how the mosaic would look on the building. Only after that could people decide whether:
(a) they like the proposed design (I hope it doesn't have white grout - I hate white grout!)
(b) it's suitable for the location, ie that the design and mosaic itself is visible enough from the road to make the project worthwhile (it won't be very effective if it becomes apparent that the building is set so far back from the road that the mosaic can only been seen if you're standing directly in front of it)
plus consider practical matters such as how dirty it will become from traffic fumes, etc, and, of course, how to raise the money for the mosaic.
So Lee, there's really no need to get so worked up about this yet. The idea is still in its infancy and may never reach fruition. But what is certain is that here are two people who are enthusiastic about improving Sydenham and who are willing to put in time and energy to make something come about. Surely we should welcome and harness that, rather than shoot their idea down in flames and send them away with their tails between their legs?
5. I think the money could be better spent elsewhere.
6. I think we should fix problems first before spending lots of money on some artwork most people haven't even seen.
Deciding the priority of public spending is always subjective. What problems do you have in mind?
PS: I've got some really bad news for you: the proposal is actually for two mosaics! A main pictorial one beneath the first floor windows and a shallow, long one across the top of the building.
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Steve Grindlay
- Posts: 606
- Joined: 4 Oct 2004 05:07
- Location: Upper Sydenham
I too think the mosaic is an excellent idea. It is a well thought out, carefully planned proposal. The people behind it are experienced; one of them has worked with Oliver Budd, who may well be involved with this project.
I should also declare an interest as I have given information and images to help with the project.
I should also declare an interest as I have given information and images to help with the project.
I have had a few PM's and comments about the mosaic (all against doing it) while out an about in Sydenham which has led led to this forum post.
I'm not against anyone giving their time to improve Sydenham. Only the mosaic. I commend the people behind it for doing it.
I just disagree with it.
Do I take it that 10 thousand pounds will be spent on the scheme to see if will work on the building and then if it doesn't we would have wasted the money?
As for the other problems that we should solve first:
• Empty shops and how they are presented (an idea about putting window displays in them was talked about a while ago). I have put forward an idea in the latest whatif.
These are greater eye sores than the naborhood centre and could actually be used to bring fresh investment to the area.
• Home park needs money spending on it, we got 20 grand for improvements, but it doesn't go far, and the adventure playground is still waiting to be done up after delay after delay.
• I have been told that the inside of the Naborhood centre needs some attention, perhaps the money would be better spent on improving facilities there first.
• The hostel opposite home park is being bricked up, I don't know why. But again it looks awful, perhaps some of the funds should be redirected to solve whatever problems they have.
• New bins in the high street instead of the broken ones we currently have. Apparently only some of these will be replaced when the road gets done up as some are controlled by highways and some by town centre management.
I'm sure many people could add to this list.
Still, if the majority of Sydenham really want a mosaic on the naborhood centre, then so be it. This is merely a forum to say yay or nay.
P.S. I hate white grout too.
I'm not against anyone giving their time to improve Sydenham. Only the mosaic. I commend the people behind it for doing it.
I just disagree with it.
Do I take it that 10 thousand pounds will be spent on the scheme to see if will work on the building and then if it doesn't we would have wasted the money?
As for the other problems that we should solve first:
• Empty shops and how they are presented (an idea about putting window displays in them was talked about a while ago). I have put forward an idea in the latest whatif.
These are greater eye sores than the naborhood centre and could actually be used to bring fresh investment to the area.
• Home park needs money spending on it, we got 20 grand for improvements, but it doesn't go far, and the adventure playground is still waiting to be done up after delay after delay.
• I have been told that the inside of the Naborhood centre needs some attention, perhaps the money would be better spent on improving facilities there first.
• The hostel opposite home park is being bricked up, I don't know why. But again it looks awful, perhaps some of the funds should be redirected to solve whatever problems they have.
• New bins in the high street instead of the broken ones we currently have. Apparently only some of these will be replaced when the road gets done up as some are controlled by highways and some by town centre management.
I'm sure many people could add to this list.
Still, if the majority of Sydenham really want a mosaic on the naborhood centre, then so be it. This is merely a forum to say yay or nay.
P.S. I hate white grout too.
Last edited by leenewham on 22 Jul 2009 17:47, edited 1 time in total.
Unfortunately, like many people, I am unable to attend them all due to work commitments. So far I have only been able to attend two. It would have been good if the ideas shown at the assembly were shared on here. They (local councilors) did that on the Brockleycentral Blog for their 50 grand local fund.nasaroc wrote: You say that you'd be keen to see the money spent elsewhere Lee. In which case attend the Assembly meetings and put forward your own ideas.
This website is an excellent resource and an important tool for council and public and personally I'd like to see it used more.
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Cheese Wotsits
- Posts: 35
- Joined: 6 Jun 2008 17:35
- Location: sydenham
I haven't seen any sketches either bensonby, but the Budd Mosaics website might give you an idea of what we could end up with:
http://www.buddmosaics.co.uk/
As much as I'm sure the people behind it have good intentions, I don't think that a mosaic is right for the building.
I think that the whole approach was wrong from the begening, Sydenham should have been asked:
- Do you want the Naborhood Centre to be done up?
most of us would have said yes I think.
- Next, we should have been given different options, not only a mosaic.
That would have been a better way. I'm sure some people wouldn't have liked whatever was chosen (a mosaic or something else), you can't please everyone, but at least the majority will be happy.
I say YES to doing up the Naborhood Centre,
I say NO to doing that with a mosaic.
http://www.buddmosaics.co.uk/
As much as I'm sure the people behind it have good intentions, I don't think that a mosaic is right for the building.
I think that the whole approach was wrong from the begening, Sydenham should have been asked:
- Do you want the Naborhood Centre to be done up?
most of us would have said yes I think.
- Next, we should have been given different options, not only a mosaic.
That would have been a better way. I'm sure some people wouldn't have liked whatever was chosen (a mosaic or something else), you can't please everyone, but at least the majority will be happy.
I say YES to doing up the Naborhood Centre,
I say NO to doing that with a mosaic.
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biscuitman1978
- Posts: 1588
- Joined: 16 May 2006 20:14
- Location: Chislehurst; previously Sydenham
Agreed.Cheese Wotsits wrote:I say YES to doing up the Naborhood Centre,
I say NO to doing that with a mosaic.
All credit to those people trying to do something constructive, but a mosaic is entirely out of keeping with the architectural style of the building. It will, as leenewham suggests, look 'stuck on'.
Far better to do up the building in the way suggested by leenewham in his 'what if? series - http://forum.sydenham.org.uk/viewtopic. ... 7a35a6b108
But I'm not against a mosaic or perhaps a mural. If agreement could be reached with the freeholder/leaseholder, I think a mosaic or mural on the wall of the building next to the Naborhood Centre (on the left as you look at it) would be great.
I think that Mr Cheesey has hit the nail on the head in that we were asked the wrong question. We could have been asked; "do we want some public art in Sydenham?" and if the answer was affirmaitve we could have a vote on various options.
With the Mosaic; someone has asked and answered that question for themselves, said yes, and decided that a mosaic on the Naborhood centre would be the best option. I admire their vision and their seizing of the opportunity offered by the Assembly process but I think that the project is ultimatley doomed, not least because of the lack of consultation.
Personally, I think it a bit off to attack a project because you think there are more deserving causes. Far better just to promote your cause and let others makes their minds up on the relative merits.
Lee, I think it interesing that you think the aesthetics of empty shops is Sydenham's number one priority, myself I would put youth crime, long term unemployment (higher than the both the borough and London averages) and social exclusion higher up the list. But thats just me. But surely saying that you cannot cant use the Sydenham Assembly to promote your cause because you have a job is a bit of a cop out. You say you have a lot of support so why not get someone else to present for you if you can't get an early finish from work one night?
With the Mosaic; someone has asked and answered that question for themselves, said yes, and decided that a mosaic on the Naborhood centre would be the best option. I admire their vision and their seizing of the opportunity offered by the Assembly process but I think that the project is ultimatley doomed, not least because of the lack of consultation.
Personally, I think it a bit off to attack a project because you think there are more deserving causes. Far better just to promote your cause and let others makes their minds up on the relative merits.
Lee, I think it interesing that you think the aesthetics of empty shops is Sydenham's number one priority, myself I would put youth crime, long term unemployment (higher than the both the borough and London averages) and social exclusion higher up the list. But thats just me. But surely saying that you cannot cant use the Sydenham Assembly to promote your cause because you have a job is a bit of a cop out. You say you have a lot of support so why not get someone else to present for you if you can't get an early finish from work one night?
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Please don't let's try to strangle this project at birth. Let's give it a chance. Surely there'll be plenty of opportunities for further and wider public consultations as the plans develop?
Spending money on any sort of public art always provokes the response that the money could be better spent on more obviously 'useful' things. I am sure all Lee's suggestions are indeed useful ones, but it seems to me that most of them are appropriate for mainstream council funding, and that people who are concerned about them ought to be pressing the council accordingly. The mosaic on the other hand is just the sort of imaginative, slightly eccentric proposal which, it could be argued, the ward assembly money, rather then mainstream council budgets, is designed for. And after all. we're talking about a comparatively small amount of pump-priming money - the bulk of the cost would be raised elsewhere.
Having said that, I personally would be quite happy to see the mosaic, or something like it, installed somewhere else if (I do not feel competent to judge) the Naborhood Centre is found to be unsuitable. As I have said before, what I find appealing about the proposed mosaic is not that it would transform the Naborhood Centre but that it could be a way of celebrating Sydenham, past and present, in a vivid and moving way. In my view this would be more likely to encourage civic morale and make us proud to be Sydenhamians than (for example) new bins in the high street.
And as for the street drinkers - well, perhaps they'd enjoy it too!
Spending money on any sort of public art always provokes the response that the money could be better spent on more obviously 'useful' things. I am sure all Lee's suggestions are indeed useful ones, but it seems to me that most of them are appropriate for mainstream council funding, and that people who are concerned about them ought to be pressing the council accordingly. The mosaic on the other hand is just the sort of imaginative, slightly eccentric proposal which, it could be argued, the ward assembly money, rather then mainstream council budgets, is designed for. And after all. we're talking about a comparatively small amount of pump-priming money - the bulk of the cost would be raised elsewhere.
Having said that, I personally would be quite happy to see the mosaic, or something like it, installed somewhere else if (I do not feel competent to judge) the Naborhood Centre is found to be unsuitable. As I have said before, what I find appealing about the proposed mosaic is not that it would transform the Naborhood Centre but that it could be a way of celebrating Sydenham, past and present, in a vivid and moving way. In my view this would be more likely to encourage civic morale and make us proud to be Sydenhamians than (for example) new bins in the high street.
And as for the street drinkers - well, perhaps they'd enjoy it too!
I cannot believe what i am reading here, i really cannot, i am absolutely stunned.
Why dont we just flush the £10,000 down the toilet, burn it into thin air or spend it on more police to control the gangs of bast@rds that walk up and down the high street stabbing people, or help support local businesses that have been brave enough to stomach the economic and social problems in Sydenham.
Not everyone wants the expensive monstrosity so if a mosaic is so important im sure one can be arranged for £40,000.
Why dont we just flush the £10,000 down the toilet, burn it into thin air or spend it on more police to control the gangs of bast@rds that walk up and down the high street stabbing people, or help support local businesses that have been brave enough to stomach the economic and social problems in Sydenham.
Not everyone wants the expensive monstrosity so if a mosaic is so important im sure one can be arranged for £40,000.
Lee - I think Simon's got a very good point. Everything that's good and promising about SE26 has happened because someone has made an effort and got out from behind their computer screen and done something about it. The SAF and Music Festival, upgrades to our rail system, the Sydenham Road Improvements scheme - I could go on - have all come about because someone has intervened in the real world.
Producing a Sim City world on STF is extremely entertaining but it changes nothing.
At the next Assembly meeting your own scheme for signage is being presented - or it will be presented if you manage to actually get there and present it. If you don't, the potential cash will no doubt find its way into some other scheme.
Please don't complain - participate. If you don't your chances of making change the way you want, simply won't happen.
Producing a Sim City world on STF is extremely entertaining but it changes nothing.
At the next Assembly meeting your own scheme for signage is being presented - or it will be presented if you manage to actually get there and present it. If you don't, the potential cash will no doubt find its way into some other scheme.
Please don't complain - participate. If you don't your chances of making change the way you want, simply won't happen.
the mosaic is a crap dated idea. it wont help bring in the trendy shops, bars, restaurants and deli's that everyone on this forum keeps begging for because it makes us look like a bunch of backward idiots.
if the mosaic goes up i will be the first to throw my doner kebab at it....... or at the next vote try get it removed ...couldnt think of a better way to spend 10 grand
if the mosaic goes up i will be the first to throw my doner kebab at it....... or at the next vote try get it removed ...couldnt think of a better way to spend 10 grand
Last edited by SMOKEIT on 22 Jul 2009 22:39, edited 1 time in total.
Hi Simon,simon wrote:
Lee, I think it interesing that you think the aesthetics of empty shops is Sydenham's number one priority, myself I would put youth crime, long term unemployment (higher than the both the borough and London averages) and social exclusion higher up the list. But thats just me. But surely saying that you cannot cant use the Sydenham Assembly to promote your cause because you have a job is a bit of a cop out. You say you have a lot of support so why not get someone else to present for you if you can't get an early finish from work one night?
I agree with you on these points, the list was in no order and by no means definitive! However if somewhere looks run down it can encourage anti social behavior and anything that helps bring investment into the area can lead to more jobs. It won't solve everything but it may help.
The discussion here is about mosaics on the naborhood centre. Something I knew nothing about until after the assembly. I am not against murals/public art etc or mosaics, I personally don't think it's right for the naborhood Centre.
One last point (just to set the record straight), I didn't state I personally had a lot of support, just that people I had talked to were against the idea of the naborhood centre.
Regards
Lee
I agree whole-hearted with Lee.
We do not need a mosaic.
It beggars belief that the council and its cronies have refused to replace those dreadful grey net curtains with some decent blinds which might cost about £400 tops for the past few years but are happy to now spend £10,000 of our money on something they have cooked up themselves.
Lee's what if, surely has to be money better spent!
We do not need a mosaic.
It beggars belief that the council and its cronies have refused to replace those dreadful grey net curtains with some decent blinds which might cost about £400 tops for the past few years but are happy to now spend £10,000 of our money on something they have cooked up themselves.
Lee's what if, surely has to be money better spent!
I am a supporter of public art in general. While it is true to say that there are many other aspects of Sydenham which are in dire need of investment (I agree that the bricked up hostel is a shocking eyesore and the Council should be ashamed of itself), if this argument was always heeded then there would be no public art anywhere, end of. For example, Gateshead is one of the most socially challenged areas in the country and yet the council there has been visionary in its support of public art projects and it has really helped to improve the area in many ways.
Good public art can be a catalyst for an area to pull up its socks and can be integral to regeneration. It instills identity and a sense of pride in the community. The knock-on effect is attracting investment and getting those empty shops filled with all those delis and bistros we so want.
HOWEVER... I think a mosaic is quite possibly the most tired, old fashioned, non-progressive piece of public art we could possibly hope for. Surely we can aspire to something abit more cutting edge than that?
Public art: yes
Mosaic: no
Good public art can be a catalyst for an area to pull up its socks and can be integral to regeneration. It instills identity and a sense of pride in the community. The knock-on effect is attracting investment and getting those empty shops filled with all those delis and bistros we so want.
HOWEVER... I think a mosaic is quite possibly the most tired, old fashioned, non-progressive piece of public art we could possibly hope for. Surely we can aspire to something abit more cutting edge than that?
Public art: yes
Mosaic: no