Here are some photos of the new London Underground trains - virtually identical to the trains which will run on our line when the ELL line arrives.(the ELL trains will be four carriages long).
Sorry about the pics of Boris!
http://londonist.com/2009/07/in_picture ... =9#gallery
Frequency of service on the new ELL has now returned to 8 trains per hour in each direction (4 to and from Crystal Palace and 4 to and from West Croydon). At one stage there was a thought that there may be 6 trains to CP. However, building work remains on track (!) and hopes rise that the line may open ahead of time.
September 20th is the date when the new franchise starts (run by our existing Train Operating Company - Southern) and when TfL take over our local stations and improvements to station, staffing and timetables commence.
New East London Line trains revealed
Wow, not many seats on there at all! Maybe it's a trick of the fact they're wider and more spacious which makes it look like there are fewer seats than on a tube carriage?
I rather like the retro patterned fabric, quite like the northern line trains of old. Definitely says "Tube" not "Train".
I hope there will be enough grabs etc. for standers to hang on to.
I rather like the retro patterned fabric, quite like the northern line trains of old. Definitely says "Tube" not "Train".
I hope there will be enough grabs etc. for standers to hang on to.
You are correct Weeble. The new East London Line trains are designed to carry up to 33% more passengers than similar length trains such as those currently operating to London Bridge. Each ELL carriage has room for 175 passengers, so a four-carriage train will hold 700 passengers.
How do they achieve this?
Very simple.
Remove most of the seats and make more passengers stand up.
TfL claim that this is acceptable since most journeys on the ELL will be less than 20 minutes in duration. But couldn’t you apply this to existing journeys to LB - or almost any journey from the London suburbs into the centre of town? TfL have to put a positive slant on this because it’s impossible to make ELL line trains more than 4 carriages long because many of the existing underground stations north of the river can only accommodate trains of this length.
If you want to hear the spin on the “advantages” of standing up rather than sitting down, go to the link below and click on the video. Listen out for the bit where the TfL man says:
“wide interior so there’s plenty of room for you to stand”
http://overgroundmicrosite.tfl.gov.uk/
Despite this, we should surely remain highly positive. We have a new line and hopefully with 8 trains per hour and Sydenham station close to the start of trains heading north, we will be able to grab the seats before anyone else gets them!
How do they achieve this?
Very simple.
Remove most of the seats and make more passengers stand up.
TfL claim that this is acceptable since most journeys on the ELL will be less than 20 minutes in duration. But couldn’t you apply this to existing journeys to LB - or almost any journey from the London suburbs into the centre of town? TfL have to put a positive slant on this because it’s impossible to make ELL line trains more than 4 carriages long because many of the existing underground stations north of the river can only accommodate trains of this length.
If you want to hear the spin on the “advantages” of standing up rather than sitting down, go to the link below and click on the video. Listen out for the bit where the TfL man says:
“wide interior so there’s plenty of room for you to stand”
http://overgroundmicrosite.tfl.gov.uk/
Despite this, we should surely remain highly positive. We have a new line and hopefully with 8 trains per hour and Sydenham station close to the start of trains heading north, we will be able to grab the seats before anyone else gets them!
I am currently trying to find out about this myself, Bensonby, as there are implications for me getting to work once the changes happen.
My own guess (and I stress it's a guess, and not anything I have found out from work) is that the slow lines won't be able to accommodate the additional planned ELL LOROL trains as well as the existing Southern services, so you will see some Southern services that now stop at Syd running fast between Norwood Junction and London Bridge.
I fear that people travelling south of Sydenham will find that East Croydon services will decrease, whilst West Croydon ones will increase, meaning a change at Norwood Junction for East Croydon and all the destinations on the south coast.
Guesswork, though, right now.
My own guess (and I stress it's a guess, and not anything I have found out from work) is that the slow lines won't be able to accommodate the additional planned ELL LOROL trains as well as the existing Southern services, so you will see some Southern services that now stop at Syd running fast between Norwood Junction and London Bridge.
I fear that people travelling south of Sydenham will find that East Croydon services will decrease, whilst West Croydon ones will increase, meaning a change at Norwood Junction for East Croydon and all the destinations on the south coast.
Guesswork, though, right now.
It is the signalling that is the limiting factor I think.
Last Sunday while waiting for a train further down the route I timed the frequency on the fast line. The lights went from red to green (through the two ambers) in about 75secs and trains were running at 2 minute intervals. Slow line is slower with a train stationary for 30/45 secs? Ambers are not so much of a problem for slower trains so 4 minutes might be just about OK. The usual problem is at junctions but as we have flyovers at the two ends of dual running this should not be a problem.
Fingers crossed.
Stuart
Last Sunday while waiting for a train further down the route I timed the frequency on the fast line. The lights went from red to green (through the two ambers) in about 75secs and trains were running at 2 minute intervals. Slow line is slower with a train stationary for 30/45 secs? Ambers are not so much of a problem for slower trains so 4 minutes might be just about OK. The usual problem is at junctions but as we have flyovers at the two ends of dual running this should not be a problem.
Fingers crossed.
Stuart
Bensonby - you are correct. At peak periods there will be 6 Southern trains and 8 ELL trains, therefore 14 trains per hour in each direction or a train approx every four minutes calling at each platform.
Barty - you are correct in warning us about services from Sydenham to East Croydon. The new Southern timetable when it appears should give us a clue - but I see no indication that we will lose our twice per hour service to EC - in fact, I'd hope that these might improve. The timetable should also provide a number of other improvements - no short trains, earlier start to the "loop line" to Victoria so that it can be used by morning commuters etc etc. We also need to examine this timetable to see if Southern have kept their promise to maintain our services to Charing Cross and that trains on either side of the morning and evening peak to and from LB are maintained. Since you work for this company, any early informmation about the new timetable would be appreciated by us all. You are however entirely wrong in saying that any existing Southern services will disappear because of the new ELL line or "signalling" issues.
Existing signalling on this line is perfectly adequate to handle all the new trains. And we should also bear in mind that delays on our line rarely happen on the middle section (beween Penge and New Cross Gate) and that this middle section is the only place (apart from the Norwood Junction bottleneck) where both Southern and ELL trains share the same track. ELL trains won't be held up by the greatest bottlenecks on our line -the entry of trains into LB station or the overcrowded East Croydon station.
Barty - you are correct in warning us about services from Sydenham to East Croydon. The new Southern timetable when it appears should give us a clue - but I see no indication that we will lose our twice per hour service to EC - in fact, I'd hope that these might improve. The timetable should also provide a number of other improvements - no short trains, earlier start to the "loop line" to Victoria so that it can be used by morning commuters etc etc. We also need to examine this timetable to see if Southern have kept their promise to maintain our services to Charing Cross and that trains on either side of the morning and evening peak to and from LB are maintained. Since you work for this company, any early informmation about the new timetable would be appreciated by us all. You are however entirely wrong in saying that any existing Southern services will disappear because of the new ELL line or "signalling" issues.
Existing signalling on this line is perfectly adequate to handle all the new trains. And we should also bear in mind that delays on our line rarely happen on the middle section (beween Penge and New Cross Gate) and that this middle section is the only place (apart from the Norwood Junction bottleneck) where both Southern and ELL trains share the same track. ELL trains won't be held up by the greatest bottlenecks on our line -the entry of trains into LB station or the overcrowded East Croydon station.
I understand the rational for having fewer seats, and although I'd sooner have more seats, we're still getting loads more trains which must be a good thing.
As I understand it, we're retaining the same number of trains into London Bridge once ELL starts, so the new trains should be additional, rather than replacing current services (although please correct me if I'm wrong). edit: ah I see nasaroc has just confirmed this!
It does seem that it will be very tightly timetabled, and lots of potential for knock-on delays and more ways in which things can go wrong. I'm expecting there'll be some teething trouble!
edit: despite nasaroc's comments, I still think we'll have more potential for delays in the future.
Personally I can't see the ELL making a massive difference to my own life, as LB trains will still be by far the most convenient for me. But I expect it'll be very good for Sydenham overall.
One thing I'm not clear on - I currently buy a rail-only season ticket. Will those still be available post-ELL, and if so, how will they control how they are used? Will the ELL trains be considered part of the rail network which can be used with a rail only season ticket?
As I understand it, we're retaining the same number of trains into London Bridge once ELL starts, so the new trains should be additional, rather than replacing current services (although please correct me if I'm wrong). edit: ah I see nasaroc has just confirmed this!
It does seem that it will be very tightly timetabled, and lots of potential for knock-on delays and more ways in which things can go wrong. I'm expecting there'll be some teething trouble!
edit: despite nasaroc's comments, I still think we'll have more potential for delays in the future.
Personally I can't see the ELL making a massive difference to my own life, as LB trains will still be by far the most convenient for me. But I expect it'll be very good for Sydenham overall.
One thing I'm not clear on - I currently buy a rail-only season ticket. Will those still be available post-ELL, and if so, how will they control how they are used? Will the ELL trains be considered part of the rail network which can be used with a rail only season ticket?
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
Bensonby wrote:
I'm not sure about that. The prospect of two waits on cold platforms for a train home, once at Charing Cross and then at London Bridge, makes the prospect of a night out in the West End significantly less attractive.
i.e., the late night trains from Charing Cross.To be frank, it would hardly be a huge price to pay to lose them...
I'm not sure about that. The prospect of two waits on cold platforms for a train home, once at Charing Cross and then at London Bridge, makes the prospect of a night out in the West End significantly less attractive.
Its ridiculous getting rid of the services direct to Charing X, its our only link to the West End, its bad enough that most of the current services only go as far as LB and that the new Overground will be of no help with that also, the services to Charing X should be extended as we dont have a direct link for most of the day to Charing X, i think it is a much needed service and the idea of getting rid of it is beyond rational thinking.
What is with the whole idea of making it particularly difficult for this part of London to get access to the West End..? SW London are spoilt for choice when it comes to public transport, even Clapham get a slice of our Overground.
What is with the whole idea of making it particularly difficult for this part of London to get access to the West End..? SW London are spoilt for choice when it comes to public transport, even Clapham get a slice of our Overground.
There are still direct trains to Lower Sydenham and trains between charing x and london bridge and ten a penny...so you'd hardly be waiting on a "cold platform" for ages twice...Robin Orton wrote:Bensonby wrote:
i.e., the late night trains from Charing Cross.To be frank, it would hardly be a huge price to pay to lose them...
I'm not sure about that. The prospect of two waits on cold platforms for a train home, once at Charing Cross and then at London Bridge, makes the prospect of a night out in the West End significantly less attractive.
I seem to recall reading that a lot of our Southern services will no longer terminate at LB but continue through to Blackfriars, Thameslink and Kings X? Certainly hope that the Charing X services are retained though as it's very handy after a night out in town!
Also, somewhat sadly as it's my regular train, they said that the fast trains to LB (calling at FH only) will be no more...
Also, somewhat sadly as it's my regular train, they said that the fast trains to LB (calling at FH only) will be no more...
I live in Upper Sydenham, there is no way that i would walk alone the length of Sydenham Road after a night out in West London, for me the fact that trains run from Charing X to Lower Sydenham is not a useful option.bensonby wrote:There are still direct trains to Lower Sydenham and trains between charing x and london bridge and ten a penny...so you'd hardly be waiting on a "cold platform" for ages twice...
those direct trains from Charing Cross are a godsend, you can get a seat & don't have run the drunken gauntlet of London Bridge, the trains are always rammed at London Bridge.
Barty, do you know if the direct from CHX trains going to be stopped? I always wondered why they start at 19:37 & there aren't any before that?
Barty, do you know if the direct from CHX trains going to be stopped? I always wondered why they start at 19:37 & there aren't any before that?
Last edited by Ronski on 17 Jul 2009 22:31, edited 1 time in total.
Don't expect too much there. We will receive the new timetable no more than a week in advance of its operation, and we will have to enter various extra details into the timetable on our system so that displays at stations are correct. I am unlikely to see it much before it becomes available from ticket offices, and I am even less likely to be able to analyse and comment on it before it starts.nasaroc wrote:Since you work for this company, any early informmation about the new timetable would be appreciated by us all.
I think I'm with Weeble.nasaroc wrote:....we should also bear in mind that delays on our line rarely happen on the middle section
If there are going to be stopping services calling every four minutes in both directions, a minor delay to any one of them will have a knock on effect which will delay many services behind it. We see this all the time in other bottlenecks across Southern's network.
There is also the possibility of fast Southern services not due to call at Syd being delayed or forced to stop, meaning fast services coming up behind will have to be diverted onto the slow lines (full of 14tph LOROL trains).
Plus of course, LOROL will have their own Control Centre, which is not going to be based in our office with Southern Control, making the process of liasing with LOROL to sort problems out that little bit longer.
It's is all very well saying it's ok to let people stand for 20mins, but I can't say I would look forward to that every morning and evening and I am young and able bodied.
If you have to then catch another tube (which often involves quite a bit of walking) and then stand on that for another 20mins, that is a lot of standing still, not really being able to do anything like read a paper or do some work very easily.
If you have to then catch another tube (which often involves quite a bit of walking) and then stand on that for another 20mins, that is a lot of standing still, not really being able to do anything like read a paper or do some work very easily.