Some People

[Marathon]

I seem to recall that a number of early adopters of the flashing LEDs were threatened with prosecution unless they removed them. Finally sense shone through and they only made legal about 2-3 years ago.

Barty - you seem to be making the point that motorists get away with nothing whilst cyclists get away with everything and is simply not true. On your point: only a small proportion of junctions have cameras. Some motorists get caught some don’t. Some cameras have film in, some don’t. Sometimes there are polic around to witness your transgression, most times there aren't.

The main point about this whole cyclist V driver revolves around lethality. A car doing 30 mph is going to do serious injury and more likely kill someone when it hits them. A cyclist doing 12mph (I take my own average cycling speed here – a bit of a plodder!) is not going to kill anyone and the cyclist is just as likely to get injured.
5 cyclists have died in RTAs in London this year (including one hit and run truck driver who has yet to be traced). I can only recall one death by cyclist - throughout the whole of the UK – in recent years. The cyclist was an idiot (he was caught!!) and he was quite rightly banged up.

Bicycle registration plates won't work as they will be prone to vandalism and theft. It's hard enough to han onto your front wheel when chained up let alone a bit of coloured plastic. And there is a simple reason why succesive govts haven't brought it in - it's just too expensive for the small potential difference it might make.

P.S. I don’t subscribe to PPs red light running. I stop at every red light – pedestrian crossings included. I live in hope that one day, all pedestrians will also respect the red light at crossings.

[Barty]

Hit-and-runs still occur, granted, but at least you have some chance of tracing the car that did it, with witnesses having a lot more ways to identify a car than a cyclist.

"Can you give a description please sir?"

"It was a bloke on a bike wearing a pair of jeans and a hoody"

"It was a bloke in a blue Ford Focus registration XX09 XXX"

[Barty]

Barty - you seem to be making the point that motorists get away with nothing whilst cyclists get away with everything

Almost. Motorists have far less potential to get away with things than cyclists do.

And yet cyclists moan louder than anyone else about being victimised on the roads. This thread itself is proof of that.

Of course there are idiot motorists, motorists who push their luck a few times, and sensible motorists. There are also sensible cyclists, moderately silly cyclists, and idiot cyclists.

Its just that we seem to hear a lot more from the cyclists who are annoyed at motorists behaviour than we do motorists annoyed by cyclists behaviour. And I feel this is because cyclists cannot be held accountable for their actions.

If I witness a car crash into my vehicle, we are legally required to stop and exchange insurance details.

If I witness a cyclist punch the side of my car and dent it, then cycle off, I have no regress.

[Barty]

Watching a cyclist go straight through red lights......or coming up to a red light, cycling onto the pavement and somehow changing into a pedestrian in order to cross the road, then turning back into a cyclist and continuing on their way.....or turning left at a red light .... in my car turning right at a t junction on a green light and watching a cyclist approach from my left and shout at ME for pulling out in front of him....watching a cyclist approach in my offside wing mirror as I sat in traffic, moving off and moving to the nearside to let him by, only to find that he'd switched sides and was thumping the side of my car and cursing me....

Or dodging them on the pavement cos they can't be bothered to cycle along the road where they are supposed to be........

Still waiting for PP or any cyclists to justify this kind of behaviour. I have many other examples.

[Thomas]

Oh Barty stop posting all this tosh - can't you confine your inane ramblings to engineering works and Eurovision?

[Barty]

I have resisted personal attacks throughout this and every other thread on this forum.

It is a pity that is not the case for all.

EDIT : Bearing in mind that we're in the Cafe, not the Pub, and considering my sense of humour has returned, feel free to start a thread branding me a Eurovision loving trainspotter in the Town Pub

[Paddy Pantsdown]

Barty, I am confused. Why would I justify bad behaviour by any road user if it adversely impacted any other road user?

You ran of a list of things that you are upset about. It was not clear to me whether you are annoyed because you can do something on a bike that you can't in a car or whether it potentially or actually caused harm to others.

I would point out that I am a motorist as well - so no special pleading here. I think you put your finger on the problem by suggesting you don't ride because it is too dangerous. What does that say about motorists and the reactions of riders? Does it suggest that those who ride and live have found ways of surviving the hazardous course. We might not agree on the methods to do it - I held out against running red lights for a long time and still feel bad about it. But you do need to distinguish between good/bad survival techniques and people who want to be bad to you.

As to being legal - your comments about exceeding the minimum requirement for lighting is highly likely to be illegal on four wheels as well as two. The danger is blinding oncoming road users. Unlikely with LEDs but very easy with 12v halogens. Another case of where the law needs to be enforced on motorists but is not an issue with cyclists. Unless they have a 12v lead acid pack in the panniers ...

PP

[Barty]

. It was not clear to me whether you are annoyed because you can do something on a bike that you can't in a car or whether it potentially or actually caused harm to others.

What annoys me is that cyclists seem to be willing to break the law, and are able to do so more easily and more often than motorists without being held accountable.

I take the point that a dangerous driver is more dangerous than a dangerous cyclist, but I do not accept that this is a valid reason for cyclists to justify breaking the law.

I accept that it is a small minority of cyclists who ride dangerously, just as it is a small minority of drivers who drive dangerously. But I honestly believe that there are a larger proportion of dangerous cyclists than there are dangerous drivers.

The average driver has paid and continues to pay vast sums of money for the privilege of being able to drive his car (driving lessons and tests, driving licence, car itself, tax, insurance, MOT, servicing, fuel, maintenance). In doing so, he accepts that his behaviour must conform to certain standards and he must obey certain rules.

When he sees a cyclist who has, on average, probably spent only a few hundred pounds to be on the same road, disobeying the rules he is expected to follow, and knows that cyclist will get away with it, he is going to be resentful.

And I feel it is this resentment behind driver's ill-treatment of cyclists, and the retailatory law-breaking by cyclists to wind up motorists.

[Chazza]

What annoys me is that cyclists seem to be willing to break the law, and are able to do so more easily and more often than motorists without being held accountable.

I understand this to mean that you're not bothered about the potential of cyclists to endanger others by breaking those laws, more that when driving a car you carry an identifying mark that means there is an increased chance of you being reprimanded for a misdemeanour? So, would your issues be resolved by removing the requirement for cars to display a licence plate?

I take the point that a dangerous driver is more dangerous than a dangerous cyclist, but I do not accept that this is a valid reason for cyclists to justify breaking the law.

You're right, it's not. I, and most other human beings, would count self-preservation as a justifiable reason for breaking the law though. The question of justifiable law breaking is a whole different issue though, perhaps worthy of its own thread in the Pub...

The average driver has paid and continues to pay vast sums of money for the privilege of being able to drive his car (driving lessons and tests, driving licence, car itself, tax, insurance, MOT, servicing, fuel, maintenance) <snip> When he sees a cyclist who has, on average, probably spent only a few hundred pounds to be on the same road <snip>

You'll probably find that most cyclists have also paid for driving lessons and run a car. As you state, driving is a privelege and people would do well to remember that when they get behind the wheel of a car. My bikes are in total worth more than my car and they cost more to maintain, because I use them more often

And I feel it is this resentment behind driver's ill-treatment of cyclists, and the retailatory law-breaking by cyclists to wind up motorists.

I think it's got more to do with today's "me-me-me" society and a general lack of regard for other people.

[Barty]

I understand this to mean that you're not bothered about the potential of cyclists to endanger others by breaking those laws, more that when driving a car you carry an identifying mark that means there is an increased chance of you being reprimanded for a misdemeanour? So, would your issues be resolved by removing the requirement for cars to display a licence plate?

No. All road users should be safe, be treated equally and reprimanded for their misdemeanours. Which means cycles/cyclists should be licenced. Not that cars/motorists should not.

I, and most other human beings, would count self-preservation as a justifiable reason for breaking the law though. The question of justifiable law breaking is a whole different issue though, perhaps worthy of its own thread in the Pub...

Is it really the case that every single time a cyclist goes out on their cycle they have to fight for their life? If it is that bad, and you feel that most cyclists run a car anyway, why do you think anyone bothers cycling?? I accept that cycling is more dangerous than motoring, but if it was as bad as people have made out, cyclists would dwindle away in number on the grounds that it was simply too death-defying to cycle.

And I feel it is this resentment behind driver's ill-treatment of cyclists, and the retailatory law-breaking by cyclists to wind up motorists.

I think it's got more to do with today's "me-me-me" society and a general lack of regard for other people.

Anyone with a "me-me-me" attitude shouldn't drive or cycle. Unfortunately that is something that even I can clearly recognise you won't be able to legislate against!!!!!

[Chazza]

Is it really the case that every single time a cyclist goes out on their cycle they have to fight for their life?

I wouldn't say you have to fight for your life, but I would say you need to have your wits about you and you need to build up experience of cycling on the roads somewhere outside central London before you tackle the commute.

If it is that bad, and you feel that most cyclists run a car anyway, why do you think anyone bothers cycling??

- Cycling to work keeps me fit and means I can eat and drink what I like without getting fat.
- It is a lot faster than a car and about the same speed as the train/tube, but more reliable.
- It is a lot cheaper than driving or public transport.
- I find dicing with traffic a lot less stressful than being caged inside a car stuck in a jam. That's because I cycle very defensively and take measures to reduce the risk of being splatted.

Barty, I would be interested to hear if you've ever tried cycling during rush hour in London?

[Paddy Pantsdown]

I did argue earlier that riding on two wheels can make you a better four wheel driver. It was a requirement when taking a motorbike test to not only use your mirrors but look over your shoulder before turning/changing lane. I still do that instinctively in a car but I've never seen a four wheel only driver do that. Its remarkable the number of times I see a vehicle I missed in the mirror that would otherwise have meant I would have upset (or worse) another driver.

That's one of the reasons why I think a two wheel test should be a mandatory pre-condition for a four wheel test. Good driving/riding should include empathy for other road users. Very difficult if you haven't seen life from the other side. Particularly when, as a car driver, you are most likely walk away from any incident uninjured.

I enjoy riding for all the reasons Chazza mentioned plus its something I can do for the environment. Why not join us Barty and become part of the solution rather than the problem?

PP

[Barty]

PP & Chazza - no, I have never tried cycling, becasue my balance is and always has been pants, right back to being a kid. The idea of a tricycle, rather than a bicycle is worth thinking about, not only because of the balance aspect, but because it would be a larger mode of transport and a little easier for motorists to see.

Having said that, from an environmental perspective, if not a fitness one, my commute is sound anyway

[sophie]

What about calling 999 everytime a cyclist goes on the pavement and nearly knocks someone over, or goes through a red light?!!! (reference to crime in progress post above)

I agree with the person who said basic manners have gone from all road users. I've not ridden a bike for years and to be honest I would be a bit scared to now because the roads are all so busy. As a driver I think I am always considerate of cyclists and don't overtake when it's too tight. However, I still find that I come across proportionately more cyclists than drivers who do not obey the rules of the road.

[Barty]

What about calling 999 everytime a cyclist goes on the pavement and nearly knocks someone over, or goes through a red light?!!! (reference to crime in progress post above)

Exactly my point sophie.....by the time the plods arrive, cyclist has gone and you don't have any information you can give to the police as you would on a car (like the number plate) to enable them to catch him! Yeah I know, change the record Barty

I still find that I come across proportionately more cyclists than drivers who do not obey the rules of the road.

Yaaayyyy someone else agrees with me.....I was worried about a lynch mob of cyclists patrolling the high street Barty-watching

[sophie]

Bloody hell, do we have to go into hiding now?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bensonby]

However, I still find that I come across proportionately more cyclists than drivers who do not obey the rules of the road.

That depends how you define "rules of the road" - most motorists I see are breaking one law or another....

[Barty]

Now spend a day concentrating on cyclists Bensonby

[jackieboo]

Spitting is the norm nowadays with most illiterates, male and female, and considerate behaviour towards cyclists has just diminished. Although...I say although...in some areas some people are ok. And it's the same with attitudes towards motorists by cyclists and pedestrians.

Maybe it's something to do with not having appopriate punishment for road/cycle rage? Who is there in authority to witness it?

Or is it something to do with people not having respect anymore?

I know where you mean near the library.i.e. murders in chicken places etc etc over the years. Lived near in Kent House Rd in the 70's....as children we felt safe to go to the park on our own and played there safely.

This was before the powers that be felt the need for barbed wire up at the Library. the death knell really and a sign of the times.

Until people are all (in a perfect unnatainable world) respectful toward each other it's a case of put your head down, get on with your life without affecting anyone else and if something happens you know nothing will be done about it.

I walk with the dog safely around where I live near Redhill, in woodland etc alone and thank goodness I don't live in inner London anymore.