It still feels very odd doesn't it poppy?
Certainly on the 'mainland' our European cousins don't attach the same down at heel values to Lidl that we seem to over here. Over there it's very much in competition with Netto; Aldi; Heller & Pfennig; Carrefour etc. Value, quality and bulk volume seem to be the watch-words that all of these stick to abroad.
The CEO of Lidl has been on Radio4 a couple of times and it's interesting to hear him talk. He had already noticed a visible skew toward the more 'middle class' demographic far in advance of the Global downturn. Similarly I have seen a number of DPS advertisements in The Times of late - and the adverts have been missing the price-sensitive message. Clearly they're going after and winning the traditional Waitrose heartland...however you would classify 'that'.
Admittedly, you do have to be very clever when you shop there. Anyone who goes skiing or holidaying in France, Italy or Germanic places will find the chocolates/olives/cold meats/cheeses etc that often define the holiday and you can't find anywhere else. There are naturally some things to strictly avoid.
Personally I still do 70-80% of my shopping in Waitrose and WellBeing but that [Waitrose] is a bit of a trek on foot from where I am so if I cannot be bothered with the 2 hour round walk to Beckenham I'll supplement WellBeing with Lidl produce.
Shopping in Waitrose is such a pleasant experience though, I don't think Lidl will ever come close to that!
Penge moving ahead of Sydenham?
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Cllr John Getgood
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 8 Jan 2009 11:30
- Location: Sydenham
As a Pengite I could make the point that the Penge Lidl's carries a more exclusive range of goods (i.e. fewer of them) and offers croissants and fresh coffee. Clearly catering for a more discerning clientele.
Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
http://www.pengeandcatorcouncillors.co.uk[/url]
Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
http://www.pengeandcatorcouncillors.co.uk[/url]
When i drive down Crystal Palace Park Road past all the grand Victorian villas, the moment I pass under the railway bridge into Penge it seems like I've suddenly gone though some secret garden like gate into Bumtown.
There seems to be quite a few roads with good Victorian housing stock in Penge that, unfortunately, seem terribly scruffy and unattractive. This tattiness seems to extend all the way down the high street.
I can't find anything that makes me want to get out and look around Penge more.
There seems to be quite a few roads with good Victorian housing stock in Penge that, unfortunately, seem terribly scruffy and unattractive. This tattiness seems to extend all the way down the high street.
I can't find anything that makes me want to get out and look around Penge more.
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commonsense
- Posts: 6
- Joined: 2 Jan 2009 18:10
- Location: parkside
I have been lurking for quite a while and I have to ask whether most of the posters to this forum ever walk through Sydenham with their eyes open on daily basis. I have lived in the 'Lawrie Park Triangle' since 1981 amd whereas I used to do my shopping in Sydenham. I now prefer to walk to Penge - it is far less aggressive and much less depressing. I am concerned that Sydenham posters have what I would have been told were 'ideas above my station'. I think it is time to get real - The Greyhound for all its worthy archicture was never an attractive venue - and now we have Blue Mountain with added attraction of the rubbish bins....? where have you been that you imagine this is going to attract incomers to the area?
I am off now to launder my maroon socks and polish my sandals!!
By the way Barty - I was born and bred in Sourfall!!
I am off now to launder my maroon socks and polish my sandals!!
By the way Barty - I was born and bred in Sourfall!!
Case Point Sydenham v Penge
I think this is getting out of hand and in my opinion both are about the same but I have a Case Point.
Venner Road . About 40% in Sydenham and about 60% in Ponge.
I lived at 31 ( now a home for the elderly ) from 1949 to 74 .
I recall that the Sydenham end used to be large Victorian houses 4 floors high often owned by one family and probably more affluent than the Penge end of Edwardian or late Victorian 2 floor houses.
Now situation reversed. The Ponge side is mostly still family homes whereas the Sydenham end old Victorian Houses have been turned into housing association or private rented small flats and ded sits etc. I agree you have the new council properies one side on the Lloyds TSB side but they futher confirm the change in the street. It was a crime the council demolished the Victorian houses that side of the road in the early 70's.
Are there any current residents of Venner Road who use this site.
I expect you can find other border roads with the opposite result.
I think this is getting out of hand and in my opinion both are about the same but I have a Case Point.
Venner Road . About 40% in Sydenham and about 60% in Ponge.
I lived at 31 ( now a home for the elderly ) from 1949 to 74 .
I recall that the Sydenham end used to be large Victorian houses 4 floors high often owned by one family and probably more affluent than the Penge end of Edwardian or late Victorian 2 floor houses.
Now situation reversed. The Ponge side is mostly still family homes whereas the Sydenham end old Victorian Houses have been turned into housing association or private rented small flats and ded sits etc. I agree you have the new council properies one side on the Lloyds TSB side but they futher confirm the change in the street. It was a crime the council demolished the Victorian houses that side of the road in the early 70's.
Are there any current residents of Venner Road who use this site.
I expect you can find other border roads with the opposite result.
I do wonder if you yourself have walked around Sydenham at all with your eyes open commonsense? Or Penge, for that matter? Citing the Greyhound and the [ever fine] Blue Moutain on your walk to and from the station is hardly representative. Sydenham Gateway requires some spit-and-polish, I'll agree but are plans not afoot?commonsense wrote:I have been lurking for quite a while and I have to ask whether most of the posters to this forum ever walk through Sydenham with their eyes open on daily basis. I have lived in the 'Lawrie Park Triangle' since 1981 amd whereas I used to do my shopping in Sydenham. I now prefer to walk to Penge - it is far less aggressive and much less depressing. I am concerned that Sydenham posters have what I would have been told were 'ideas above my station'. I think it is time to get real - The Greyhound for all its worthy archicture was never an attractive venue - and now we have Blue Mountain with added attraction of the rubbish bins....? where have you been that you imagine this is going to attract incomers to the area?
I am off now to launder my maroon socks and polish my sandals!!
By the way Barty - I was born and bred in Sourfall!!
Do you really see Penge as far less aggressive and depressing? Pray tell where might that be? The only thing to recomend Penge is the Bridge Tavern and as previous that only survives, in my experience, due to trade from Sydenhamites (those from CPP Road and the Lawrie Park Triangle)...
It's proximity to the more affluent climes of Sydders probably helps it [the Bridge Tavern] else I fear it would quickly disappear without trace.
Now, let me be clear. I am not 'down' on Penge per se. I have even posted on this very thread about a walk I occasionally do around Penge that I find interesting. There are 3 fine conservation areas and...
That's about it.
As previous once you go 'over' the High St [toward the Anerley rather than the Sydenham side] things take a marked and noticeable turn for the worse. Do many if any trains stop at Penge West? What does the High St have to recommend itself? Do the residents of the few desirable streets around Cator Road tell those who ask that they live in Sydders or perhaps New Beckenham rather than Penge?
It's not a question of having ideas above anyone's station. It's a question of realising just how many 'fine, Victorian, well-maintained with good families' streets there are in Sydders [both upper and lower]. I simply cannot say the same for Penge.
That is not to say that both areas do not have 'problem areas', it's just that Penge clearly has more of them based on my many travels there (or should that be travails?). I agree neither High Street puts one in mind of Winchester High Street but Sydders simply has more of the things I need.
Outside of Waitrose and John Lewis I do all of my shopping and entertaining locally. In no order I use The Dolphin; WellBeing; Blue Mountain; Kirkdale Books; Dulwich Wood House and my glasses/flowers/beauty products and the such are all purchased locally. Given how incredibly busy these places are at certain times I'm clearly far from being alone...
Anyway. You have your own view, however I feel regarding it's basis in fact. I do hope you don't get the impression I am saying you are not entitled to it. Quite the opposite.
One thing I will say is I would imagine if I lived in Penge or Cator I'd rather my councillor focused his energies on improving the perpetually poor reputation and environs of Pong (which I use in jest) rather than finding he on the website of Sydenham posting comments that could be perceived as inflammatory?
Wouldn't you agree John?Cllr John Getgood wrote:Clearly catering for a more discerning clientele.
After all, even that most august of publications Time Out *ahem* signed off when they did the article on Sydenham being up and coming with "...whatever Kirstie Allsopp says, they'll never gentrify Penge".
Unless they are going to knock-down the vast majority of Penge's housing stock - the sprawling, seemingly never-ending 30's, 50's and 60's estates. In my humble opinion. The only reference to Penge [quite rightly] in the whole article was that one line. I'd say it about sums Penge up, wouldn't you?
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
In September 2007 'Observer' on http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/guide/seat ... penge?cp=4 gives some interesting information (though without any indication of its source):
'Penge and Cator, the largest ward in the constituency, covering Penge, an area proverbial for suburban formlessness. It is similar in social composition to the Lewisham wards of Perry Vale and Sydenham; with low-income and mid-income families dominating the ward – although slightly more affluent than its Lewisham counterparts...'
'Sydenham is an interesting study. It’s the biggest of the Lewisham wards. Much of the ward, straddling the A212 from the northern tip of Crystal Palace to Horne [sic] Park, looks pleasant and leafy, and not natural Labour territory – and, certainly, it saw the Conservatives achieve their highest share of the vote on the Lewisham side in the borough elections. Yet it has the second lowest average income of all the wards in the constituency [after Bellingham], and Labour are pretty solid here. This is largely because the eastern part of the ward, traditionally known as Lower Sydenham, was always low-income, associated with the gasworks; and in Upper Sydenham on the slopes of Crystal Palace, many of the Victorian houses of the affluent were either replaced by or converted into social housing after the war, and the sort of gentrified influx seen elsewhere in the locality hasn’t taken hold yet (although there was Conservative representation in the ward until the 1990 elections). This gives the ward the second-highest proportion of social housing in the borough, and a pretty solid Labour base...'
(My underlining).
'Penge and Cator, the largest ward in the constituency, covering Penge, an area proverbial for suburban formlessness. It is similar in social composition to the Lewisham wards of Perry Vale and Sydenham; with low-income and mid-income families dominating the ward – although slightly more affluent than its Lewisham counterparts...'
'Sydenham is an interesting study. It’s the biggest of the Lewisham wards. Much of the ward, straddling the A212 from the northern tip of Crystal Palace to Horne [sic] Park, looks pleasant and leafy, and not natural Labour territory – and, certainly, it saw the Conservatives achieve their highest share of the vote on the Lewisham side in the borough elections. Yet it has the second lowest average income of all the wards in the constituency [after Bellingham], and Labour are pretty solid here. This is largely because the eastern part of the ward, traditionally known as Lower Sydenham, was always low-income, associated with the gasworks; and in Upper Sydenham on the slopes of Crystal Palace, many of the Victorian houses of the affluent were either replaced by or converted into social housing after the war, and the sort of gentrified influx seen elsewhere in the locality hasn’t taken hold yet (although there was Conservative representation in the ward until the 1990 elections). This gives the ward the second-highest proportion of social housing in the borough, and a pretty solid Labour base...'
(My underlining).
If I recall the 'Faith in the City' report and the subsequent identifying Sydenham as an UPA by the CoE - people were very surprised that Sydenham featured. On closer inspection the 'average' was meaningless. Few in Sydenham were average. It was closets of bad deprivation within a decidely more affluent environment.
Most of London's communities are fairly homogenous. Middle Class or Working Class etc. Sydenham is decidedly not. Which makes it more attractive and interesting then some of the 'better' areas for me.
Stuart
Most of London's communities are fairly homogenous. Middle Class or Working Class etc. Sydenham is decidedly not. Which makes it more attractive and interesting then some of the 'better' areas for me.
Stuart
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Cllr John Getgood
- Posts: 34
- Joined: 8 Jan 2009 11:30
- Location: Sydenham
Ulysses wrote: One thing I will say is I would imagine if I lived in Penge or Cator I'd rather my councillor focused his energies on improving the perpetually poor reputation and environs of Pong (which I use in jest) rather than finding he on the website of Sydenham posting comments that could be perceived as inflammatory?
Sorry if Ulysses finds my clearly flippant remark (much of the thread was in that vein) as inflamatory. It's part of my role, though, to be a local advocate and I am proud to do it. Other responses find it refreshing that a local councillor is prepared to put his head above the parapet and actively respond to local discussion groups. At least you know where to find us; we don't hide. Approx 20 mins a day checking the two major blog sites certainly doesn't divert me from working on behalf of the residents of Penge and Cator. Just a shame we cannot represent Ulysses as well.
Cllr John Getgood
Penge & Cator
www.pengeandcatorcouncillors.co.uk
I would just like to add that I regard Cllr Getgood as my councillor too. He does represent a part of Sydenham so is as justified in posting as, say, Cllr Best. I can't vote for him being one street from the Bromley frontier - but the decisions Bromley make are almost as important to me as those made by Lewisham. This is an opportunity to exchange views and information.
Sydenham & Penge are interdependent. Check out who uses Penge East and the Penge Sainsburys is more convenient (and nicer?) than Savacentre to those of us who live at this end of Sydenham. The mismanagement of Penge shopping centre by the borough with the subsequent loss of the street market is a loss to us all. We need Councillors who will fight for Penge and Sydenham. Thats good for us all - so welcome Mr Getgood and ignore our occasional parochiality please.
Stuart
Sydenham & Penge are interdependent. Check out who uses Penge East and the Penge Sainsburys is more convenient (and nicer?) than Savacentre to those of us who live at this end of Sydenham. The mismanagement of Penge shopping centre by the borough with the subsequent loss of the street market is a loss to us all. We need Councillors who will fight for Penge and Sydenham. Thats good for us all - so welcome Mr Getgood and ignore our occasional parochiality please.
Stuart
Totally agree Stuart. Please continue posting on this forum Cllr Getgood.
As a loyal Sydenhamite, I won't have anyone say that any area is better than the demi paradise that is SE26. But even I am disappointed by the sheer "tattiness" of our local high street - broken paving slabs, poor street furniture, ugly railings etc - whilst most of Penge High Street still looks quite good after its make-over a number of years ago. The improvements to Sydenham Road can't come quickly enough as far as I am concerned.
As a loyal Sydenhamite, I won't have anyone say that any area is better than the demi paradise that is SE26. But even I am disappointed by the sheer "tattiness" of our local high street - broken paving slabs, poor street furniture, ugly railings etc - whilst most of Penge High Street still looks quite good after its make-over a number of years ago. The improvements to Sydenham Road can't come quickly enough as far as I am concerned.
Well, on the know your neighbour website my postcode comes up with the highest level for most catagories in terms of profession and educational background. It was actually compared to Kingston-Upon-Thames!!!
It is not one of the posher-looking roads either but it does not mean we do not care about our area or appreciate the finer, and actually sometimes simpler things in life....a good coffee, good food, and nice surroundings, which is why the state of the high street is pretty depressing at times.....
It is not one of the posher-looking roads either but it does not mean we do not care about our area or appreciate the finer, and actually sometimes simpler things in life....a good coffee, good food, and nice surroundings, which is why the state of the high street is pretty depressing at times.....
Last edited by poppy on 16 Apr 2009 10:28, edited 1 time in total.
The number of people with degree level qualifications and above in Sydenham East is 26% and in the central (Grove ) ward of Kingston Upon Thames the figure is 47%. The number of people in Sydenham in A and B social groups (horrible categories!) is 23% and 40% in Kingston. If you take any of the even posher outlying areas of Kingston borough the difference in these figures would be even more striking.
Much as I want to be a supporter for my area, there reallly is no comparison in social and educational terms between Sydenham and Kingston.
You are thinking of Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey and not Kingston in Jamaica, are you Poppy?
Much as I want to be a supporter for my area, there reallly is no comparison in social and educational terms between Sydenham and Kingston.
You are thinking of Kingston Upon Thames, Surrey and not Kingston in Jamaica, are you Poppy?
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Robin Orton
- Posts: 3380
- Joined: 9 Sep 2008 07:30
- Location: London SE26
If you do what Poppy suggests, upmystreet.com compares SE26 to areas such as Southall and Ilford. Nothing wrong with that. But there's no mention of Kingston Upon Thames!
Of course you can pick out specific areas of SE26 and compare them with anything you like. Some streets in Sydenham may compare to Kingston Upon Thames (although, frankly I doubt it). Other areas of Sydenham will equate with some of the very poorest wards in Britain.
What matters is an overall view of the area.
I have little doubt that there are very many comfortably well-off and "well educated" people in Sydenham - although they form a significantly smaller percentage of the total population than areas such as Kingston, Balham, Lordship Lane, Dulwich or Clapham.
(And please! The very mention of places such Balham or Lordship Lane usually raise a wave of invective on this forum. I am not trying to make SE26 like Balham - only trying to point out basic facts about comparative wealth and social groupings).
Of course you can pick out specific areas of SE26 and compare them with anything you like. Some streets in Sydenham may compare to Kingston Upon Thames (although, frankly I doubt it). Other areas of Sydenham will equate with some of the very poorest wards in Britain.
What matters is an overall view of the area.
I have little doubt that there are very many comfortably well-off and "well educated" people in Sydenham - although they form a significantly smaller percentage of the total population than areas such as Kingston, Balham, Lordship Lane, Dulwich or Clapham.
(And please! The very mention of places such Balham or Lordship Lane usually raise a wave of invective on this forum. I am not trying to make SE26 like Balham - only trying to point out basic facts about comparative wealth and social groupings).