That may be true for the borough as a whole, but are there any stats to illustrate what percentage of people who use Sydenham station in rush hour work in Canary Wharf and The City, both of which will be much easier to get to after the ELL arrives? I'm betting it's more than 4%.parker wrote:Also i dont see why more trains should be sent to Canary Wharf when only 4% of people living in the borough of Lewisham work there.
More short trains at Sydenham station
TfL have carried out surveys based on people's destinations. The Sydenham and FH Societies did the same eighteen months ago, when we were fighting to maintain services to LB.
They show that approx 70% of local passengers will want to catch LB-bound trains after June 2009 and that approx 30% will want to catch ELL trains i.e. for 70% of local passengers their quickest way to work is via LB and for 30% of local passengers their quickest way to work will be via the ELL.
So 30% will use the ELL line at its inception. Even if it did little else but help almost a third of passengers from SE26 to their destinations and back the new line would be very worthwhile - and this will immediately reduce crowding on LB trains by one third.
But transport isn't static. The potential figures for use of the ELL are exponentially huge. As soon as people realise that they can live in Sydenham and travel in 20 minutes to a dedicated new station at Shoreditch High Street, for example, people who work in the nothern City will move to Sydenham to live. That's why we can be so confident of the ELL giving this area a "lift". Any new transport sytem has the same effect. When the M25 opened, people were able to live in Gravesend and work at Heathrow (not a very "sustainable" activity but I'm just using it to prove a point). Within a few years the balance between those using the ELL and those using LB trains will change totally and ELL passengers will be in the majority.
People who make the claim, as Parker does that the ELL is a "line to nowhere" or will only serve a very tiny minority are entirely wrong. I guarantee that in 15 months time those same people will be writing on STF telling us that they can't get onto ELL trains because they are so overcrowded!
They show that approx 70% of local passengers will want to catch LB-bound trains after June 2009 and that approx 30% will want to catch ELL trains i.e. for 70% of local passengers their quickest way to work is via LB and for 30% of local passengers their quickest way to work will be via the ELL.
So 30% will use the ELL line at its inception. Even if it did little else but help almost a third of passengers from SE26 to their destinations and back the new line would be very worthwhile - and this will immediately reduce crowding on LB trains by one third.
But transport isn't static. The potential figures for use of the ELL are exponentially huge. As soon as people realise that they can live in Sydenham and travel in 20 minutes to a dedicated new station at Shoreditch High Street, for example, people who work in the nothern City will move to Sydenham to live. That's why we can be so confident of the ELL giving this area a "lift". Any new transport sytem has the same effect. When the M25 opened, people were able to live in Gravesend and work at Heathrow (not a very "sustainable" activity but I'm just using it to prove a point). Within a few years the balance between those using the ELL and those using LB trains will change totally and ELL passengers will be in the majority.
People who make the claim, as Parker does that the ELL is a "line to nowhere" or will only serve a very tiny minority are entirely wrong. I guarantee that in 15 months time those same people will be writing on STF telling us that they can't get onto ELL trains because they are so overcrowded!
As much as I disagree with nasaroc on some things I must point out that he is exceedingly well-informed on these issues and has worked tirelessly to promote a better (all round) service on these lines and to preserve the capacity and service that we already experience....
c****, that's twice recently I've posted supporting nasaroc!
c****, that's twice recently I've posted supporting nasaroc!
Bensonby - can I commend you on your remarkable judgement of character and facts. Clearly, your recent holiday has given you a chance to reflect more clearly on events back at home.
To return to the discussion on railways.
Parker is correct in saying that the western extension to the ELL seems a bit unfair since it gives people in places like Clapham and Wandsworth even better access to public transport when they are already spoiled for choice. I think we ought to bear in mind, however, that the new line also serves Peckham and New Cross two of the poorest areas of London - both of whom currently have inadequate rail services.
Let's not gripe about the ELL and our future rail services. The situation could hardly be better. We are getting a new £1.3bn line plus Oystercards, station staffing at all times when trains are running, an improved service to Victoria, Thameslink services from Sydenham, station upgrades including a £310,000 scheme to refurbish Station Approach and longer trains to LB. At long last we can look forward to a train system in this area that's going to be every bit as good - and better - than that enjoyed by our neighbours in south-west London.
To return to the discussion on railways.
Parker is correct in saying that the western extension to the ELL seems a bit unfair since it gives people in places like Clapham and Wandsworth even better access to public transport when they are already spoiled for choice. I think we ought to bear in mind, however, that the new line also serves Peckham and New Cross two of the poorest areas of London - both of whom currently have inadequate rail services.
Let's not gripe about the ELL and our future rail services. The situation could hardly be better. We are getting a new £1.3bn line plus Oystercards, station staffing at all times when trains are running, an improved service to Victoria, Thameslink services from Sydenham, station upgrades including a £310,000 scheme to refurbish Station Approach and longer trains to LB. At long last we can look forward to a train system in this area that's going to be every bit as good - and better - than that enjoyed by our neighbours in south-west London.
An update on the ELL (and Victoria/Wandsworth service):
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com ... toria.html
They're saying that Shoreditch High Street will be Zone 1.
If true, I think this defeats the object of having an outer-circle line? If you have to pay zone 1 fees to get across town then you may as well change at London Bridge or go for a more direct route using the existing tube connections at Canada Water/Whitechapel.
http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com ... toria.html
They're saying that Shoreditch High Street will be Zone 1.
If true, I think this defeats the object of having an outer-circle line? If you have to pay zone 1 fees to get across town then you may as well change at London Bridge or go for a more direct route using the existing tube connections at Canada Water/Whitechapel.
Gaz - well done on uncovering this. Doesn't surprise me frankly given the pressure on rail costs.
Perfectly justifiable to put Shoreditch into Zone 1 if you are commuting there daily - frankly it's in the middle of the City and it's been an anomaly that Shoreditch isn't in Zone 1 anyway. But the ELL was sold as part of an orbital route around the Capital. Strategically it was meant to take pressure off busy interchanges such as London Bridge. So it's a bit galling, as you say, for passengers wanting to use the "orbital" service to have 60p added to a single fare just for passing through Shoreditch.
On the other hand I don't think it will make the difference to travelling patterns that you claim. The ELL will still be outside zone 1 if you travel east to Canary Wharf via Canada Water. No-one travelling to Shoreditch is now going to go through LB surely when they can stay on the ELL and travel straight there (the price is the same and you avoid the horrors of LB and the northern line). And anyone wanting to travel west from Canada Water or Whitechapel was going to pay zone 1 charges anyway - so why not use the ELL line if it's quicker and less crowded to get to these interchange stations via the ELL - which it will be?
Perfectly justifiable to put Shoreditch into Zone 1 if you are commuting there daily - frankly it's in the middle of the City and it's been an anomaly that Shoreditch isn't in Zone 1 anyway. But the ELL was sold as part of an orbital route around the Capital. Strategically it was meant to take pressure off busy interchanges such as London Bridge. So it's a bit galling, as you say, for passengers wanting to use the "orbital" service to have 60p added to a single fare just for passing through Shoreditch.
On the other hand I don't think it will make the difference to travelling patterns that you claim. The ELL will still be outside zone 1 if you travel east to Canary Wharf via Canada Water. No-one travelling to Shoreditch is now going to go through LB surely when they can stay on the ELL and travel straight there (the price is the same and you avoid the horrors of LB and the northern line). And anyone wanting to travel west from Canada Water or Whitechapel was going to pay zone 1 charges anyway - so why not use the ELL line if it's quicker and less crowded to get to these interchange stations via the ELL - which it will be?
Nasaroc - thanks for the considered reply!
I posted that in a rush whilst at work so hadn't really had chance to think about how Shoreditch High St being in zone 1 would really affect things. Needless to say I completely agree with your analysis about practical usage.
I think I'd still prefer to see SHS being classed zone 1/2 like the Elephant (or I believe the most logical would be to only charge a higher z1 fare for those alighting at SHS) but I can see the rational behind the move to recoup money. I guess any skinflints can always travel to Highbury & Islington by going clockwise round the orbital!
I posted that in a rush whilst at work so hadn't really had chance to think about how Shoreditch High St being in zone 1 would really affect things. Needless to say I completely agree with your analysis about practical usage.
I think I'd still prefer to see SHS being classed zone 1/2 like the Elephant (or I believe the most logical would be to only charge a higher z1 fare for those alighting at SHS) but I can see the rational behind the move to recoup money. I guess any skinflints can always travel to Highbury & Islington by going clockwise round the orbital!
Nasaroc you seem to be very much in the know which must be exciting, can i ask what does the improved service to victoria mean, will they be keeping the LB to Victoria loop? How will there be more trains? Also are there any major plans or indeed any ideas in the pipeline regarding exactly how and what is planned for the rejuvenation of Station Approach.nasaroc wrote: an improved service to Victoria, Thameslink services from Sydenham, station upgrades including a £310,000 scheme to refurbish Station Approach.
Also i believe that Southern Rail's franchise runs out soon, not entirely sure when, i forget ..does this mean it will simply change to a different name and the Southern signage will be altered or will 'Thameslink' become the provider for the existing train services travelling to London Bridge, East Croydon and from Sutton to West Croydon?
I am intending to organise a public meeting in early September to be addressed by someone from TfL and from Travelwatch. It's likely to be in the Naborhood centre on a weekday evening. At this meeting you can come along and hear details of the new franchise, introduction of Oystercards, plans for introduction of ELL services etc. I will advertise this meeting on STF.
In September the loop line to Victoria will continue as normal - 2 trains per hour. However, all trains will be a minimum of 8 carriages (rather than the 2 or 3-carriage trains that often appear). Plus this service will now start earlier in the day (at the moment the first train is at 8.33am from memory) so it can be more easily used by morning commuters. Of course, when the ELL arrives, 6 additional trains per hour will also take you to Crystal Palace where you can change for trains to Victoria which come from Norwood Junction.
So we can expect a very much improved service to Victoria and Clapham Junction area in the future.
The new franchise starts in the third week of September. There are four contenders to run our local services – Govia, South West Trains, National Express and NedRail. The franchise winner will be announced in early June. Also in September, TfL take over our stations and start putting "OVERGROUND" signs all over the stations and Oystercards are introduced.
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In September the loop line to Victoria will continue as normal - 2 trains per hour. However, all trains will be a minimum of 8 carriages (rather than the 2 or 3-carriage trains that often appear). Plus this service will now start earlier in the day (at the moment the first train is at 8.33am from memory) so it can be more easily used by morning commuters. Of course, when the ELL arrives, 6 additional trains per hour will also take you to Crystal Palace where you can change for trains to Victoria which come from Norwood Junction.
So we can expect a very much improved service to Victoria and Clapham Junction area in the future.
The new franchise starts in the third week of September. There are four contenders to run our local services – Govia, South West Trains, National Express and NedRail. The franchise winner will be announced in early June. Also in September, TfL take over our stations and start putting "OVERGROUND" signs all over the stations and Oystercards are introduced.
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There are rumours, and I must stress, only rumours at this point, that National Express and NedRail either have or are on the verge of pulling out of the running, leaving current operator Govia, and Stagecoach (who operate South West Trains and own a big chunk of Virgin Trains) as the only two bidders.nasaroc wrote:There are four contenders to run our local services – Govia, South West Trains, National Express and NedRail.
As has been said before, though, whether Govia or Stagecoach operate the South Central franchise, Sydenham and nine other local stations will transfer to London Overground in September, and, once the East London Line extension opens, many services that call here will not be operated by Southern (or whatever it is called at that point!)
Parker - just for clarity, "Thameslink" is the name of a rail franchise - that franchise is currently operated by First Group and known as First Capital Connect. Up to now, no FCC trains have called at Sydenham - they travel along the two fast lines up the middle.
So, right, let me get this straight, if South West Trains took over would they run under that name and have the red colour scheme, also would that mean that the trains that run on the Southern route like the Brighton service would also change to South West Trains?
I thought South West trains were severely in debt and that they are trying to get rid of staff constantly.
I must say i cant wait for those orange Overground Roundells to arrive, it will feel so good to see Sydenham act as part of an important public transport network.
I thought South West trains were severely in debt and that they are trying to get rid of staff constantly.
I must say i cant wait for those orange Overground Roundells to arrive, it will feel so good to see Sydenham act as part of an important public transport network.
It's a bit confusing, Parker, so bear with me.
The privatised rail network is split into franchises, and the franchises are operated by Train Operating Companies (TOCs) for set lengths of time.
Our franchise in this area is called the South Central franchise. It is currently operated by Govia. Govia are free to choose whatever brand name they like for the franchise whilst they operate it, and whatever colour scheme they like for their logo, and their trains, and station signs etc etc. Govia decided to call it Southern, paint everything green, and choose a roundel that harked back to the old Southern Region of British Rail days.
And so we come to franchise ending time.....the companies mentioned earlier have bid, and we wait to see who is successful.
If Stagecoach win the franchise, again they will call it what they like. They will be unlikely to call it South West Trains though - SWT is the name for their South Western franchise, and they won't want to confuse the two. They will probably call it Southern Trains. What they will probably do, though, is repaint trains and station signs in the blue, red and orange colour scheme familiar to SWT travellers. But the South Central franchise won't become South West Trains. TOCs have to keep things separate in case they lose the franchise when it comes up again.
The privatised rail network is split into franchises, and the franchises are operated by Train Operating Companies (TOCs) for set lengths of time.
Our franchise in this area is called the South Central franchise. It is currently operated by Govia. Govia are free to choose whatever brand name they like for the franchise whilst they operate it, and whatever colour scheme they like for their logo, and their trains, and station signs etc etc. Govia decided to call it Southern, paint everything green, and choose a roundel that harked back to the old Southern Region of British Rail days.
And so we come to franchise ending time.....the companies mentioned earlier have bid, and we wait to see who is successful.
If Stagecoach win the franchise, again they will call it what they like. They will be unlikely to call it South West Trains though - SWT is the name for their South Western franchise, and they won't want to confuse the two. They will probably call it Southern Trains. What they will probably do, though, is repaint trains and station signs in the blue, red and orange colour scheme familiar to SWT travellers. But the South Central franchise won't become South West Trains. TOCs have to keep things separate in case they lose the franchise when it comes up again.