Nasaroc is getting the two issues confused. I intervened to get extra carriages put on the Southern rush hour trains, this has nothing to do with the East London Line. I would never claim that the Southern train service is perfect but extra carriages means that those at Sydenham and Forest Hill have more chance of getting a seat and for those further up the line it means more chance of getting on the train.
Raymondus – I did not say that only one train per hour would be cut from the London Bridge route – there was a query about diverting the London Bridge to Victoria train service via Tulse Hill. Southern informed me that if this happened, it would reduce by 2 trains per hour the service at 8 of South London’s busiest stations.
I am quite clear that the East London Line will bring improvements to Sydenham and Forest Hill. As mentioned before it will mean better safety and security, more staff at stations, Oyster ticketing at all stations and an alternative journey route – with trains every 8 minutes. However, I recognise that we need to closely monitor how it will affect current train services. Transport for London tell me that they are currently developing the service pattern proposals for this route and the South London route utilisation strategy will look at all the south London routes and work up a plan for all the services – this will also include the ELL services. The consultation document will be available spring 2007.
I am asking TfL what passenger forecasting work have they done. They did tell me that the East London Railway will operate to tube hours (not suburban train hours).
Len Duvall
Assembly Member for Greenwich & Lewisham
More short trains at Sydenham station
Len - Thank you for your submission. Could I ask you to clarify four issues:
1. Staffing
The article "On the Move" on page 8 of the November 2006 issue of Lewisham Life which contains a picture and a quote from you says that "newly linked stations will be fully staffed at all time while trains are running." Your submission above seems to fall short of this clear and unequivocal statement. Could you clarify the exact staffing that's been planned please?
2. Scrapping existing trains
Most of us are aware of the south London RUS that you mention above. But we'd expect you as our political representative to do a great deal more than just "monitor" the situation. Can you make it clear on this forum that whilst welcoming the new East London Line you do not believe that any existing services should be scrapped and that you will fight to ensure this does not happen? In fact it might be a great idea to start a petition on this issue. Would you be willing to sign such a petition? (I've signed yours by the way and encourage others to do the same).
3. Oyster Cards
I'm puzzled as to why you conflate the issues of the coming of the ELL and the arrival of Oyster card. The introduction of Oyster cards to most suburban stations by 2008 has nothing to do with the arrival of the ELL. Most stations not on the ELL will also have Oyster cards. I know that politicians always want to bring good news but surely this is stretching things too far?
4. Bad news on ELL
I notice that you wish to distance yourself from the "short ELL trains" issue by drawing attention to my apparent "confusion". Just for the record - you must have regular meetings with TFL and Southern Rail. It's inconceivable that you weren't one of the first to know that all ELL trains were to be only four carriages and that many existing services were to be cancelled. Why didn't you let your constituents know about these issues immediately rather than allowing them to find out later by chance? Is there any more hidden bad news about the coming of the ELL that we should know about?
1. Staffing
The article "On the Move" on page 8 of the November 2006 issue of Lewisham Life which contains a picture and a quote from you says that "newly linked stations will be fully staffed at all time while trains are running." Your submission above seems to fall short of this clear and unequivocal statement. Could you clarify the exact staffing that's been planned please?
2. Scrapping existing trains
Most of us are aware of the south London RUS that you mention above. But we'd expect you as our political representative to do a great deal more than just "monitor" the situation. Can you make it clear on this forum that whilst welcoming the new East London Line you do not believe that any existing services should be scrapped and that you will fight to ensure this does not happen? In fact it might be a great idea to start a petition on this issue. Would you be willing to sign such a petition? (I've signed yours by the way and encourage others to do the same).
3. Oyster Cards
I'm puzzled as to why you conflate the issues of the coming of the ELL and the arrival of Oyster card. The introduction of Oyster cards to most suburban stations by 2008 has nothing to do with the arrival of the ELL. Most stations not on the ELL will also have Oyster cards. I know that politicians always want to bring good news but surely this is stretching things too far?
4. Bad news on ELL
I notice that you wish to distance yourself from the "short ELL trains" issue by drawing attention to my apparent "confusion". Just for the record - you must have regular meetings with TFL and Southern Rail. It's inconceivable that you weren't one of the first to know that all ELL trains were to be only four carriages and that many existing services were to be cancelled. Why didn't you let your constituents know about these issues immediately rather than allowing them to find out later by chance? Is there any more hidden bad news about the coming of the ELL that we should know about?
1. Staffing – TfL say it will have the same standards as the London Underground, which is fully staffed while trains are running. The North London Line model is the benchmark for future ‘London Overground’ staffing and we will need to monitor this.
2. I am more than happy to sign your petition, I would not want to see a reduction in current services. To my knowledge nothing is definite, although I will continue to make representations. The only issue of course will be safety and I am looking at how many trains we can physically put on the line.
3) Hopefully, Oyster cards will be introduced in 2008. I have been lobbying for the roll-out for Oyster Pre-Pay for a long time, if for any reason there is a delay we know for certain they will be introduced on the back of the ELL.
4) Hands up – I was not aware that the ELL trains would consist of 4 carriages or that there could be a threat to London Bridge services until it came up on the forum, which is why I find the forum useful to double check information. Although in hindsight I suppose it is no surprise that it is 4 carriages given that the current ELL consists of 4 carriages. However, you have to take into account increased frequency and not just capacity. TfL has made the decision that it will continue to stop at short platform stations. We can lobby for it to be extended in the future, but I am keen to just get the line up and running first.
Regarding, possible reduction to London Bridge services - I have been asking, for some time, both Southern and TfL about the effect on services to London Bridge and whether the Crystal Palace - Victoria loop will be discontinued. I reported on the South London Route Utilisation strategy a while ago, which was what I was told. I do not have regular meetings with Southern - unlike TfL - but rest assured I will raise it with them at my next meeting
To finish off on some positive news – from Dec 11 2006 Southern are extending the following services:
- Two extra carriages on 0654 Epsom to London Bridge via Sydenham
- Four extra carriages on the 1715 London Bridge to London Victoria via Sydenham
- Four extra carriages on the 1751 London Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace
Len Duvall AM
Assembly Member for Greenwich & Lewisham
2. I am more than happy to sign your petition, I would not want to see a reduction in current services. To my knowledge nothing is definite, although I will continue to make representations. The only issue of course will be safety and I am looking at how many trains we can physically put on the line.
3) Hopefully, Oyster cards will be introduced in 2008. I have been lobbying for the roll-out for Oyster Pre-Pay for a long time, if for any reason there is a delay we know for certain they will be introduced on the back of the ELL.
4) Hands up – I was not aware that the ELL trains would consist of 4 carriages or that there could be a threat to London Bridge services until it came up on the forum, which is why I find the forum useful to double check information. Although in hindsight I suppose it is no surprise that it is 4 carriages given that the current ELL consists of 4 carriages. However, you have to take into account increased frequency and not just capacity. TfL has made the decision that it will continue to stop at short platform stations. We can lobby for it to be extended in the future, but I am keen to just get the line up and running first.
Regarding, possible reduction to London Bridge services - I have been asking, for some time, both Southern and TfL about the effect on services to London Bridge and whether the Crystal Palace - Victoria loop will be discontinued. I reported on the South London Route Utilisation strategy a while ago, which was what I was told. I do not have regular meetings with Southern - unlike TfL - but rest assured I will raise it with them at my next meeting
To finish off on some positive news – from Dec 11 2006 Southern are extending the following services:
- Two extra carriages on 0654 Epsom to London Bridge via Sydenham
- Four extra carriages on the 1715 London Bridge to London Victoria via Sydenham
- Four extra carriages on the 1751 London Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace
Len Duvall AM
Assembly Member for Greenwich & Lewisham
.
Also having seen how many people change at New X Gate , those of you wanting to get on the direct to London Bridge trains may find that Canary Wharf bound passengers will wait for the next ELLX train, leaving more standing space for you.
having suffered the journey from Sydenham to Canary Wharf for much of the past 18 months, at least the ELLX will bring to an end the game currently played at New Cross Gate where the ELL and Rail services are coordinated so that only Ben Johnson ( in his drug assisted days) would be able to make the connection. I am sure this is for safety reasons, but it is very frustrating to miss a train by 5 metres and wait another 10 or more minutes - early in the morning the ELL has up to 18 minute gaps in service.it just takes out the need to change trains at New Cross Gate. Whilst that will shave 5 minutes off the journey time to Canary Wharf,
Also having seen how many people change at New X Gate , those of you wanting to get on the direct to London Bridge trains may find that Canary Wharf bound passengers will wait for the next ELLX train, leaving more standing space for you.
Ian, I don't think you need to worry too much about the interchange at New Cross Gate for much longer (believe me I know your frustration at seeing your connection just pull out).
Despite the Jubilee line getting an extra 14% capacity at the beginning of the year it is now already "full" - and that is TfL's own description. Given that they are still developing Canary Wharf, the Jubilee line trains will just get more packed. Given the rate of increase in the Jubilee line usage and that fact that only a few people get off at Canada Water, it'll only be a matter of months before people will have to go into London Bridge to stand any chance of actually getting on a train to Canary Wharf.
By the time the East London line reopens, there will be no chance of using it to get to Canary Wharf - unless there is a new mode of transport from Canada Water to the Wharf. The Jubilee line will be ram packed. Even when Cross Rail arrives, things will not get much better. TfL's own prediction is for the number of people working in Canary Wharf to grow from today's 80,000 to 250,000. Personally I think that the growth of Canary Wharf will be limited by transport infrastructure. But whatever else happens, the Jubilee line will remain packed for the foreseeable future (i.e. at least 20 years), allowing increasingly limited option for people to change from the ELL to the Jubilee line at Canada Water. So, we have to save all the London Bridge services!
Despite the Jubilee line getting an extra 14% capacity at the beginning of the year it is now already "full" - and that is TfL's own description. Given that they are still developing Canary Wharf, the Jubilee line trains will just get more packed. Given the rate of increase in the Jubilee line usage and that fact that only a few people get off at Canada Water, it'll only be a matter of months before people will have to go into London Bridge to stand any chance of actually getting on a train to Canary Wharf.
By the time the East London line reopens, there will be no chance of using it to get to Canary Wharf - unless there is a new mode of transport from Canada Water to the Wharf. The Jubilee line will be ram packed. Even when Cross Rail arrives, things will not get much better. TfL's own prediction is for the number of people working in Canary Wharf to grow from today's 80,000 to 250,000. Personally I think that the growth of Canary Wharf will be limited by transport infrastructure. But whatever else happens, the Jubilee line will remain packed for the foreseeable future (i.e. at least 20 years), allowing increasingly limited option for people to change from the ELL to the Jubilee line at Canada Water. So, we have to save all the London Bridge services!
Kster - I think you're correct that there should be a great deal of local support for a campaign to "save our services" and I think the points you make earlier about the way in which the Jubilee Line is already overcrowded particularly heading east to Canary Wharf make it even more imperative that we retain all our direct services to London Bridge.
The Sydenham Society are getting together with all the other similar groups up and down the line like the Forest Hil Society, Brockley Society, Hillyfields Society etc to start a broad-based campaign to fight these closures. The first thing we'll be asking is that all our local MPs and councillors support us in this campaign.
But we need to broaden this campaign to involve as many current commuters as we can. Any suggestions of how we do this would be gratefully received.
Of course it would be ideal to hear from some local councillors that they intend to lead a fight against these cuts. They are supposed to represent local views after all. But I wouldn't hold your breath on this if I were you!
The Sydenham Society are getting together with all the other similar groups up and down the line like the Forest Hil Society, Brockley Society, Hillyfields Society etc to start a broad-based campaign to fight these closures. The first thing we'll be asking is that all our local MPs and councillors support us in this campaign.
But we need to broaden this campaign to involve as many current commuters as we can. Any suggestions of how we do this would be gratefully received.
Of course it would be ideal to hear from some local councillors that they intend to lead a fight against these cuts. They are supposed to represent local views after all. But I wouldn't hold your breath on this if I were you!
It would be good if our elected representative lobbied for this. But I think it'll take more than that and a couple of hundred letters from members of Sydenham soc et al.
What we need is (a) a show of volume of support and (b) some media attention. That will at least focus their attention and then they might make any cuts in service somewhere that will be less troublesome.
I very much doubt that most people realise the implication of the ELLX and the proposed cuts, so they need to be told. I think that targeting each station for a night or morning and getting people when they arrive/leave the station to sign a petition (we can also encourage them to write, but most will have good intensions but then forget about it, so we need to get something signed up there and then). It should be fairly easy to do; some volunteers, stack of flyers, a couple of banners and a petition.
I think Greg W said he worked in media – does he have any contacts that could help us get publicity? There must be a number of journalists who work in the area – we just need to find them and get them on board. A simple website explaining that basics and giving people a sample letter to print and send would be good.
What we need is (a) a show of volume of support and (b) some media attention. That will at least focus their attention and then they might make any cuts in service somewhere that will be less troublesome.
I very much doubt that most people realise the implication of the ELLX and the proposed cuts, so they need to be told. I think that targeting each station for a night or morning and getting people when they arrive/leave the station to sign a petition (we can also encourage them to write, but most will have good intensions but then forget about it, so we need to get something signed up there and then). It should be fairly easy to do; some volunteers, stack of flyers, a couple of banners and a petition.
I think Greg W said he worked in media – does he have any contacts that could help us get publicity? There must be a number of journalists who work in the area – we just need to find them and get them on board. A simple website explaining that basics and giving people a sample letter to print and send would be good.
I agree wholeheartedly with your aim to start a public campaign about our loss of train services once the ELL arrives. But I'm also aware of the amount of work which this entails. Your plan to leaflet all local stations (that's five of them between here and London Bridge including Sydenham) is a good one. But that alone will take immense time and effort. And at the moment there's just you and me - this thread has gone rather quiet since you mentioned actually doing something more about the issue than just sounding off on a website.
Why don't we both meet - along with anyone else who's interested - and discuss a campaign?
Why don't we both meet - along with anyone else who's interested - and discuss a campaign?
Next Wednesday evening in the Golden Lion?
Apart from a handful of people to be the organising, most people would only need to commit to 2-3 hours one morning - not much to ask! We'd only need 1% of the sydenham society members and a few people from this forum to cover a couple of stations. I guess other areas would have their own societies / forums.
Apart from a handful of people to be the organising, most people would only need to commit to 2-3 hours one morning - not much to ask! We'd only need 1% of the sydenham society members and a few people from this forum to cover a couple of stations. I guess other areas would have their own societies / forums.
Ticketing – I have been told by Transport for London that there will be no difference in price, fares will be the same whichever service is used.
At a meeting on Friday, where Sydenham Society were represented, we were told that both TfL and Network Rail are doing modelling on passenger travel patterns. I have requested more information on this.
Reduction to services - the answer I have received from TfL is that "whilst initial studies by TfL indicate a possible reduction by 2 trains per hour to London Bridge, these are actually Network Rail services and they are the appropriate body to contact on this matter. Network Rail are currently undertaking the Southern Route Utilisation Strategy, looking at service provision in the area as a whole."
At the meeting on Friday there was a real commitment not to cut services - it is too premature to say there will actually be a 2 train reduction. TfL said that we are about 2 months away from a decision on the London Bridge trains.
I am lobbying TfL on the importance of providing accurate information to the public.
Len Duvall AM
Assembly Member for Greenwich & Lewisham
At a meeting on Friday, where Sydenham Society were represented, we were told that both TfL and Network Rail are doing modelling on passenger travel patterns. I have requested more information on this.
Reduction to services - the answer I have received from TfL is that "whilst initial studies by TfL indicate a possible reduction by 2 trains per hour to London Bridge, these are actually Network Rail services and they are the appropriate body to contact on this matter. Network Rail are currently undertaking the Southern Route Utilisation Strategy, looking at service provision in the area as a whole."
At the meeting on Friday there was a real commitment not to cut services - it is too premature to say there will actually be a 2 train reduction. TfL said that we are about 2 months away from a decision on the London Bridge trains.
I am lobbying TfL on the importance of providing accurate information to the public.
Len Duvall AM
Assembly Member for Greenwich & Lewisham
I think the East London Line maybe a waste of time because we need more trains from Sydenham to London Bridge etc without having to change, it looks as if 3 changes would need to be made on the tube line in order to get to the West End or indeed Charing X or Oxford Circus, etc. The EEL doesnt really look like its going to help commuters into London, really its just a way to get people into London without going via the congested London Bridge, and as for the Western extention that may never happen to Clapham Junction - it would seem better to keep the London Bridge-Victoria loop so that people can get off the train at places like Streatham, Balham and Wandsworth Common, it seems stupid to have to change at somewhere like that 'hole' Surrey Quays to go to Clapham Junction when it can already be done without changing on the current network. A reduction in trains to London Bridge will be awful, the EEL doesnt complement it at all, it will be a change for the worst. The journey to the West End, eg Charing X is bad enough with the lack of trains as it is, let alone making the 'long haul/3 changes' route via the EEL, there seems to be no logic with the idea of the EEL except for letting them have the ability to say 'we have provided an expansion in rail networks across South East London' absolute ****!
Parker - give us a break! You have picked up the end of a thread which was last posted on in 2006, and added your views (many of which are factually incorrect) about a situation which has now changed entirely thanks to the campaigning effort of locals.
1. The East London line extension was not set up as a means of getting to London Bridge. It serves the very useful purpose of linking this area with the northern Square Mile - for example, the new dedicated Shoreditch station not far from Liverpool Street station will be a huge boost for those who want to travel there whilst avoiding the more costly Zone one route via LB. The East London line also provides easy and quicker access to the East (Canary Wharf etc - again avoiding Zone 1) and to the west via a quick and easy change at Canada Water. To the south it provides extra access to Crystal Palace and West Croydon - 10 trains per hour to be exact.
2. You claim that the Western extension {to the ELL} "may never happen". The western extension to Clapham Junction was announced last month and will be in place by 2012. The WE is not intended as a means of allowing people to travel from this area to Clapham Junction.You'd be better using the loop line to Victoria from Sydenham for this purpose. The WE is intended to link Clapham junction and this area of south-west London with the City.
3. You claim that "a reduction in trains to LB would be awful". Yes it would. But that's not what is planned. There will be no loss of trains to LB once the ELL arrives. Indeed, from September all LB trains will be a minimum of 8 carriages, and from 2012, platforms along this line will be extended to carry 10 and 12 carriage trains.
There are very many other improvements happening to our rail system in the coming months. Please spend a little time examining these changes before you post things which are factually incorrect and please don't link onto posting which are three years old assuming nothing has changed in the meantime.
1. The East London line extension was not set up as a means of getting to London Bridge. It serves the very useful purpose of linking this area with the northern Square Mile - for example, the new dedicated Shoreditch station not far from Liverpool Street station will be a huge boost for those who want to travel there whilst avoiding the more costly Zone one route via LB. The East London line also provides easy and quicker access to the East (Canary Wharf etc - again avoiding Zone 1) and to the west via a quick and easy change at Canada Water. To the south it provides extra access to Crystal Palace and West Croydon - 10 trains per hour to be exact.
2. You claim that the Western extension {to the ELL} "may never happen". The western extension to Clapham Junction was announced last month and will be in place by 2012. The WE is not intended as a means of allowing people to travel from this area to Clapham Junction.You'd be better using the loop line to Victoria from Sydenham for this purpose. The WE is intended to link Clapham junction and this area of south-west London with the City.
3. You claim that "a reduction in trains to LB would be awful". Yes it would. But that's not what is planned. There will be no loss of trains to LB once the ELL arrives. Indeed, from September all LB trains will be a minimum of 8 carriages, and from 2012, platforms along this line will be extended to carry 10 and 12 carriage trains.
There are very many other improvements happening to our rail system in the coming months. Please spend a little time examining these changes before you post things which are factually incorrect and please don't link onto posting which are three years old assuming nothing has changed in the meantime.
Well nasaroc you have enlightened me about the idea that they will have larger rolling stock accomodating passengers to London Bridge, i thought they were trying to reduce them alongside the advocation of the LB to Victoria loop. However i dont feel extra trains to Croydon, especially West Croydon are in any higher demand than they are at the moment. I think there maybe more demand for trains on the LB to Victoria loop.
Also i dont see why more trains should be sent to Canary Wharf when only 4% of people living in the borough of Lewisham work there. And as for SW London, they have been spoilt for choice for many years regarding public transport, do they really need another line giving them even more access to London, Canary Wharf from Clapham Junction, it has been South East London which has done without all these years explaining why house prices are cheaper, etc because the transport links havent been very well catered for commuters wanting to go to London.
All i can say is that i wish there was better access on the EEL for passengers wanting to go to Central London, ie Charing X. Dont get me wrong, having a tube entering South East is amazing, a very exciting thing to happen for some of the cheaper areas of London, though better links into Central would have been nice via the new EEL.
Also i dont see why more trains should be sent to Canary Wharf when only 4% of people living in the borough of Lewisham work there. And as for SW London, they have been spoilt for choice for many years regarding public transport, do they really need another line giving them even more access to London, Canary Wharf from Clapham Junction, it has been South East London which has done without all these years explaining why house prices are cheaper, etc because the transport links havent been very well catered for commuters wanting to go to London.
All i can say is that i wish there was better access on the EEL for passengers wanting to go to Central London, ie Charing X. Dont get me wrong, having a tube entering South East is amazing, a very exciting thing to happen for some of the cheaper areas of London, though better links into Central would have been nice via the new EEL.